1670s Charles II Half Penny, Confederate Block I button, Buttons, Buckle piece, Stuff

[joeyfresh]

Met up with Bill D. again this morning. Our intentions were to check out some spots we had done a little research on including a couple of early 1700 sites... then we were going to return to the site where Bill found his Charles II farthing last week and try to eek out a few more oldies. We gained permission at one of the allegedly ca. 1700 sites and after a half hour of swinging we started to hit iron and dig brick. We anticipated finding more but the site didn't yield much but a few buttons so we decided to hit the fall-back site from last week. After chit-chatting with the nice homeowner our first goal was to try to find my lost cut pistareen from last week but sadly, after a much appreciated effort from Bill, the spanish silver is still lost...possibly forever .

My first two targets were a nice early drilled-shank button back (I'm assuming it was inlaid with bone at one point) and a spoon handle. I then dug the customary lead balls, tacks and buckle pieces. After roaming around I got a really high tone (93 on my T2 vdi) and dug up a cruddy and worn looking copper which turned out, after a very delicately cleaning, to be a 1670's Charles II half penny. My next good target was this flattened Confederate Block I button which is the second confederate button I found in this area within a few weeks. Finding any Civil War buttons in that area is somewhat strange because there wasn't any Civil War activity there other than a small skirmish miles down the road. These were probably lost by the home owners after the War.

 

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[joeyfresh]

93 on the T2 will get you excited for sure. Those numbers don't show up too often, especially at an old site. Great stuff! 1600s coin and a Block 1. Hope your Christmas is half as good as that hunt.

You're right, a 93 would indicate silver. It must be the size and composition of this copper that makes it ring up so high on the VDI. I think Bill's farthing rang up high as well. Maybe someone with knowledge of these Charles II coppers can shed some light on this??

 

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[Ahab8]

You're right, a 93 would indicate silver. It must be the size and composition of this copper that makes it ring up so high on the VDI. I think Bill's farthing rang up high as well. Maybe someone with knowledge of these Charles II coppers can shed some light on this??

Yeah I would be really curious to know why that rang up so high. The couple of kg half pennies I've found rang up in the low 80s if I remember correctly. Let me know if you get more info. Thanks, Abe

 

[CRUSADER]

You're right, a 93 would indicate silver. It must be the size and composition of this copper that makes it ring up so high on the VDI. I think Bill's farthing rang up high as well. Maybe someone with knowledge of these Charles II coppers can shed some light on this??

I know they were high quality copper, but they only sound mid-high tone. (I think, but mostly I dig)

 

[Ahab8]

I know they were high quality copper, but they only sound mid-high tone. (I think, but mostly I dig)

What Cru says makes a lot of sense. As we all know the older the coin the better the purity and more solid the coins seem to be. So that's prob part of it. I don't get hung up on the numbers at all but I will take a look if I'm at an old site just to have an idea what I might be digging and to see if I there is a pattern between the numbers and a certain item. I just dig anything that's not grunting at me!

 

[joeyfresh]

I check the VDI on all coppers due to the high prevalence of counterfeit British coins in America.

 

[Ahab8]

I check the VDI on all coppers due to the high prevalence of counterfeit British coins in America.

That is a very good point! One that I hadn't considered being so new at this. Only about 4 months in. Thanks for that info, I will keep that in mind

 

[Iron Patch]

I check the VDI on all coppers due to the high prevalence of counterfeit British coins in America.

That % would significantly decrease for George I and earlier.

 

[joeyfresh]

That % would significantly decrease for George I and earlier.

Was that because of the profitability due to the value increase of copper or was it because the older coins were noticeably heavier thus it would have been easier to detect a counterfeit...or was it something else? It's a real interesting topic that I'm sure has been discussed heavily in the past.

 

[Iron Patch]

Was that because of the profitability due to the value increase of copper or was it because the older coins were noticeably heavier thus it would have been easier to detect a counterfeit...or was it something else? It's a real interesting topic that I'm sure has been discussed heavily in the past.

Just not as many counterfeits in general, and anything pre George I is cast not struck. It wasn't until George II era did they start making their own dies. A crude George i or earlier copper made from a hand cut die would probably have some real good value because it's just something we never see. On the flip side of that during George III there doesn't seem to be many cast counterfeits so they were more into making the struck coins. Not sure why the change, maybe people were looking at the suspect quality, but then again some of the struck ones are pretty bad - bad likely meaning good to a collector.

 

[joeyfresh]

Thanks IP. We just don't find many coppers down here and the counterfeit aspect is very interesting.

 

[CRUSADER]

Just not as many counterfeits in general, and anything pre George I is cast not struck. It wasn't until George II era did they start making their own dies. A crude George i or earlier copper made from a hand cut die would probably have some real good value because it's just something we never see. On the flip side of that during George III there doesn't seem to be many cast counterfeits so they were more into making the struck coins. Not sure why the change, maybe people were looking at the suspect quality, but then again some of the struck ones are pretty bad - bad likely meaning good to a collector.

All true, but unless you were a serious merchant level dealer I'm not sure the average colonist would care what the coin looked or felt like. Thats why you had so many strange coins circulating at the same time. IMO (just thinking out loud)

 

[Old Dude]

Were the counterfeits from modern times or the period?



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[CRUSADER]

Were the counterfeits from modern times or the period?



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Period/contemporary.

 

[Old Dude]

I would imagine their value didn't suffer to a collector today




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[CRUSADER]

I would imagine their value didn't suffer to a collector today




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Like IP has said before, it's the unusual funky looking ones/ones with funny letters that the collector pays big bucks for. Sometimes scary amounts!

 

[Iron Patch]

Like IP has said before, it's the unusual funky looking ones/ones with funny letters that the collector pays big bucks for. Sometimes scary amounts!

British the highest is $18,000. American, the best and rarest Machin's Mills I'm guessing could reach in the range of 100k, but that would be the rarest and probably the best known. When multi millionares fight over coins good things tend to happen for the seller.

 

[Old Dude]

I know what I am asking Santa for Christmas.


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[Ahab8]

Had the day off due to a nice storm here in Maine. I went down to my buddy's coin shop and the whole counterfeit copper subject came up. He pulled out. 1787 Machin's Mills half penny. I encourage anyone who's interested in this stuff to educate themselves on some of the more popular counterfeits. The story behind this actual mint is very interesting and a great read. He shoes me a fantastic book that shows all of these well known counterfeits and how to identify them.

 

[Ahab8]

Sorry guys not sure what happened but this is the book and it is very comprehensive with all of the early colonial stuff as well as the counterfeit variations, how to identify them, and the values. Some of these are extremely valuable and personally I don't want to make a $20,000 mistake because I didn't know what I had . All the best, Abe

 

[Iron Patch]

Sorry guys not sure what happened but this is the book and it is very comprehensive with all of the early colonial stuff as well as the counterfeit variations, how to identify them, and the values. Some of these are extremely valuable and personally I don't want to make a $20,000 mistake because I didn't know what I had . All the best, Abe

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That book no doubt lists all the Machin's Mills, and maybe a few others, but would not cover the British counterfeits which is the vast majority. There is no good current up to date book and the only people who really have a good handle on these is the handful of serious collectors.

Here's a thread posted before your time on this site that you might enjoy reading.


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...eorgivs-backwards-s-update-id-25-83a-omg.html