1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
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mad4wrecks
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
Jeff K, thanks for sharing this article with us. I am a "newspaper clipper" too going way back, but I somehow missed this one.
Dell's recollections explain why there were no follow-up stories.
(much like the emerald wreck, Isabella Emerald story)
Jeff K, thanks for sharing this article with us. I am a "newspaper clipper" too going way back, but I somehow missed this one.
Dell's recollections explain why there were no follow-up stories.
(much like the emerald wreck, Isabella Emerald story)
Chagy
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
Someone must have copies of the documented accounts of AGI, Santo Domingp, legajo 167.
There has to be documented accounts from the survivors as to what happened
Maybe right here in Florida since the survivors were found south of St. Augustine
Like Tom said;
It would be nice to get a better idea of where the Santissima Concepcion wrecked other than to the "south of Cape Canaveral." That leaves quite a bit of water to cover!
Jeff K and Dell thanks for the info....great stuff
Someone must have copies of the documented accounts of AGI, Santo Domingp, legajo 167.
There has to be documented accounts from the survivors as to what happened
Maybe right here in Florida since the survivors were found south of St. Augustine
Like Tom said;
It would be nice to get a better idea of where the Santissima Concepcion wrecked other than to the "south of Cape Canaveral." That leaves quite a bit of water to cover!
Jeff K and Dell thanks for the info....great stuff
Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
In 1987 I verify 36 bundles (some 32,000 documents) from the AGI for Throckmorton to find some hint of the "Santiago El Grande" but there is not the most minimum sign. It's important to know that the second half of the XVIII century is perfectly documented and if this shipwreck had existed some minimum hint had appeared. But nothing.
I think that Roman has confused the shipwreck of the "Santa Barbara alias La Caraqueña", happened in 1766 in the reef Eldorado in Bahamas. I insisted with Throckmorton to knowing the source of information, and finally he told me to belong to a well-known character and that they had problems with the investors. In other words, it was a ghost shipwreck completely invented taking advantage from a "possible" error of Roman.
In 1987 I verify 36 bundles (some 32,000 documents) from the AGI for Throckmorton to find some hint of the "Santiago El Grande" but there is not the most minimum sign. It's important to know that the second half of the XVIII century is perfectly documented and if this shipwreck had existed some minimum hint had appeared. But nothing.
I think that Roman has confused the shipwreck of the "Santa Barbara alias La Caraqueña", happened in 1766 in the reef Eldorado in Bahamas. I insisted with Throckmorton to knowing the source of information, and finally he told me to belong to a well-known character and that they had problems with the investors. In other words, it was a ghost shipwreck completely invented taking advantage from a "possible" error of Roman.
Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
In 1683 there was not fleet from Tierra Firme (Panama, Cartagena), only from Nueva España (Mexico, Honduras) general Diego Fernández Zaldivar and capitana and almiranta arrived to Cádiz.
In 1683 there was not fleet from Tierra Firme (Panama, Cartagena), only from Nueva España (Mexico, Honduras) general Diego Fernández Zaldivar and capitana and almiranta arrived to Cádiz.
Chagy
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
Claudio
Now you got thinking...I have not been able to find any information on this wreck....Hummm the only information is the one in Marx book......to bad that Seville et l'Atlantique only goes up to 1650.....another good source is "Armada Espanola" by Duros but I didnt find anything...NADA!!!
Claudio said:
Claudio
Now you got thinking...I have not been able to find any information on this wreck....Hummm the only information is the one in Marx book......to bad that Seville et l'Atlantique only goes up to 1650.....another good source is "Armada Espanola" by Duros but I didnt find anything...NADA!!!
mad4wrecks
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
Whatever document(s) Marx is citing, he states "after picking up treasures in Panama, Cartegena and Mexico..."
Wasn't that in itself unusual? Sounds like a 'combined fleet.'
Whatever document(s) Marx is citing, he states "after picking up treasures in Panama, Cartegena and Mexico..."
Wasn't that in itself unusual? Sounds like a 'combined fleet.'
Chagy
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
Yes that is weird Marx does gives the source:AGI, Santo Domingo legajo 167.
Marx also mentions an Admiral Manuel Ortiz Arosemena....Manuel Ortiz is a very common name and last name in Spanish but Arosemena is not that common.....maybe that will help us...
Mackaydon can you throw us a bone here
mad4wrecks said:Whatever document(s) Marx is citing, he states "after picking up treasures in Panama, Cartegena and Mexico..."
Wasn't that in itself unusual? Sounds like a 'combined fleet.'
Yes that is weird
Marx does gives the source:AGI, Santo Domingo legajo 167.Marx also mentions an Admiral Manuel Ortiz Arosemena....Manuel Ortiz is a very common name and last name in Spanish but Arosemena is not that common.....maybe that will help us...
Mackaydon can you throw us a bone here
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
ah try this smaller fleet from coloumbia / panama under one commander say (x) --- joins up in mexico with a larger fleet headed by a senior commander say (y)-- command of the new "joint" fleet belongs to (y) from mexico --- thus it called the "neuvo espana folta" from mexico under capt gen (y) -- correct ? --- kind of like the 1715 combined fleet was UBILLA's fleet as senior man --- although Echeverz had a fleet of his own "under" him
ah try this smaller fleet from coloumbia / panama under one commander say (x) --- joins up in mexico with a larger fleet headed by a senior commander say (y)-- command of the new "joint" fleet belongs to (y) from mexico --- thus it called the "neuvo espana folta" from mexico under capt gen (y) -- correct ? --- kind of like the 1715 combined fleet was UBILLA's fleet as senior man --- although Echeverz had a fleet of his own "under" him
Treasure Corp
Tenderfoot
Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
Burt Webber is back with Marine Exploration Inc. !
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071004/aqth084.html?.v=23
Burt Webber is back with Marine Exploration Inc. !
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071004/aqth084.html?.v=23
Chagy
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
I did find this: 1683 - 496 people die from a hurricane that affects east-central Florida,[3] though modern researchers question whether it was a hurricane or not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Florida_hurricanes_(pre-1900)
I did find this: 1683 - 496 people die from a hurricane that affects east-central Florida,[3] though modern researchers question whether it was a hurricane or not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Florida_hurricanes_(pre-1900)
ivan salis
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
uh -- 500 folks were reportly on the ship and only 4 lived = so 496 dead --- note the numbers of dead reported from the storm of 1683 --- 496* lives lost --- huummm sniff sniff do I smell a "clue" ---odd how the numbers add up exactly to one another --- the researcher in me thinks that theres more information out there in the spanish archives from that time frame that needs looking at---aaarrgghh --- Ivan
uh -- 500 folks were reportly on the ship and only 4 lived = so 496 dead --- note the numbers of dead reported from the storm of 1683 --- 496* lives lost --- huummm sniff sniff do I smell a "clue" ---odd how the numbers add up exactly to one another --- the researcher in me thinks that theres more information out there in the spanish archives from that time frame that needs looking at---aaarrgghh --- Ivan
jeff k
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
1683: The 700 ton galleon Santissima Concepcion runs aground after encountering a hurricane.
http://www.treasurelore.com/florida/hurricanes.htm
1683: The 700 ton galleon Santissima Concepcion runs aground after encountering a hurricane.
http://www.treasurelore.com/florida/hurricanes.htm
Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
According to José Carlos Millas and his work "Hurricanes of the Caribbean and adjacent regions, 1492-1800", published by Academy of the Arts and Sciences of the America, Miami Florida 1968, in 1683 there were not hurricanes.
According to José Carlos Millas and his work "Hurricanes of the Caribbean and adjacent regions, 1492-1800", published by Academy of the Arts and Sciences of the America, Miami Florida 1968, in 1683 there were not hurricanes.
Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
Jose Carlos Millas, in his book Hurricanes of The Caribbean, does not mention any hurricane between 1681 and 1684. The Spanish archive collection in the library at U. of Florida does not mention any hurricane or wreck in 1683. If any survivors from a wreck had reached St. Augustine in that year, it would have been in the legajos found in that library collection. Poey and Tannehill mention no hurricane in that year. Southey (1827), and Evans (1837) also do not mention this hurricane.
Jose Carlos Millas, in his book Hurricanes of The Caribbean, does not mention any hurricane between 1681 and 1684. The Spanish archive collection in the library at U. of Florida does not mention any hurricane or wreck in 1683. If any survivors from a wreck had reached St. Augustine in that year, it would have been in the legajos found in that library collection. Poey and Tannehill mention no hurricane in that year. Southey (1827), and Evans (1837) also do not mention this hurricane.
mad4wrecks
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
Next! (on to the La Magdalena)
Next! (on to the La Magdalena)
Chagy
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Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
Claudio and Miner49er
I have to agree with both of you on this......I guess the answer to this mystery is the the source in Marx book AGI, Santo Domingo, 167
Tom
I started another thread for the "Magdalena" 'More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl"
I also checked the book of Carlos Millas to verify this hurricane in 1563 and this is what i found:
This supposed hurricane is mentioned in the lists of Poey and Evans. No other table or catalogues of hurricanes refer to this case. Poey quotes Bohun(1671 pag 260) and provably Evans also fallows him.
Claudio and Miner49er
I have to agree with both of you on this......I guess the answer to this mystery is the the source in Marx book AGI, Santo Domingo, 167
Tom
I started another thread for the "Magdalena" 'More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl"
I also checked the book of Carlos Millas to verify this hurricane in 1563 and this is what i found:
This supposed hurricane is mentioned in the lists of Poey and Evans. No other table or catalogues of hurricanes refer to this case. Poey quotes Bohun(1671 pag 260) and provably Evans also fallows him.
Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
In 1563 there was hurricane. I ignore if it reached the Florida, but the fleet of New Spain of Juan Menéndez Aviles it was surprised by one at 70 leagues before Bermuda and the hurricane lasted 6 or 7 hours. I verified the captain's disappearance, apparently shipwrecked in the Bahamas, but I didn't find anything with respect to a Magdalena.
In 1563 there was hurricane. I ignore if it reached the Florida, but the fleet of New Spain of Juan Menéndez Aviles it was surprised by one at 70 leagues before Bermuda and the hurricane lasted 6 or 7 hours. I verified the captain's disappearance, apparently shipwrecked in the Bahamas, but I didn't find anything with respect to a Magdalena.
Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"
I recall that a F-16 crashed in the Keys and the tail section was recovered some months later off the U.K..
This is a true story.
It was taken by the Gulf Stream.
This tells me that anything can be moved to anywhere nature wants to take it.
Peg Leg
I recall that a F-16 crashed in the Keys and the tail section was recovered some months later off the U.K..
This is a true story.
It was taken by the Gulf Stream.
This tells me that anything can be moved to anywhere nature wants to take it.
Peg Leg
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