"A band of desperados, thieves and murderers.." SW Florida seminole war

[RayHeezy]

Thoughts? Unsure of what island it could be, too many match that description. Worth chasing down this kind of site?

 

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[newnan man]

There are lot of islands down there. The info given is not too specific. I don't know how you could have an island SE of Charlotte Harbor. SE of there is the Florida mainland.

 

[villagenut]

Could be Pine island, although it is westerly of the Harbour and probably like two miles in length. The other settlement may have been any creek near Sarasota....Phillipi creek, Dona Bay, or a host of others. It was described as being between the Manatia River and charlotte Harbor. That Manatia river was most likely the Little Manatee River and not the Manatee River as it was called Oyster River at that time period. Lots of ground to cover to find that settlement that now sits under modern homes and roadways.

 

[RayHeezy]

Could be Pine island, although it is westerly of the Harbour and probably like two miles in length. The other settlement may have been any creek near Sarasota....Phillipi creek, Dona Bay, or a host of others. It was described as being between the Manatia River and charlotte Harbor. That Manatia river was most likely the Little Manatee River and not the Manatee River as it was called Oyster River at that time period. Lots of ground to cover to find that settlement that now sits under modern homes and roadways.

I was keying in on the first location. Pine Island is 17 miles long, so unfortunately I don't think it's quite that easy.
Very general information though. I also agree with Newnan, I don't understand how it could be Southwest, if that is all mainland...

 

[ARC]

Panther Key.

Be very aware... all that area... as with most any area that exists that may or may not have any historical past... is off limits to detecting begin with.
"They" have over the past made sure that anywhere that had anything going on in the past OR anywhere near is protected and is off limits to detection or digging.
BUT... That island... and well as ALL surrounding areas of that island are in THE Everglades NATIONAL park preserve... you dig and your done with your searching when and if you are caught,.. you wont be digging any more.
In some cases if you even have a metal detector with you in an area such as this can lead to it being confiscated ... And IF you were digging... and found anything... your boat.. your car... and everything else AND you personally will also be taken.

 

[villagenut]

I think Juan Gomez had settled panther key but i think that was in his later years, and he and his wife lived alone there. My reference to Pine Island was meant to be two miles wide....not long. Perhaps if the fellow did not know east from west, he may have not known length from width, or one mile from two miles.

 

[villagenut]

I think that in order to see more of what the teller of the settlement actually saw, it would be best to see the area as it was contemporary to the time he saw it. Here is John Lee Williams map from 1837, just a few years after the settlement was spotted. Williams map is highly respected for accuracy for he actually visited Florida and made extensive notes on its geography...

 

[ARC]

I think Juan Gomez had settled panther key but i think that was in his later years, and he and his wife lived alone there. My reference to Pine Island was meant to be two miles wide....not long. Perhaps if the fellow did not know east from west, he may have not known length from width, or one mile from two miles.

Correct.

 

[Flipperfla]

Here are some of the places I have researched and have been to thru 10K Islands and the Glades. Great reference for that time and area are the Books Killing Mr. Watson and Bone by Bone.
Lopez Homestead SW of Chokoloskee on the Lopez River, water cistern still there.
Wiggins Trading Post Sandfly Key W of Everglades City
Gomez Homestead on Panther Key
Richards Homestead on Mormon Key
Jenn Cheveleir Homestead…….Gopher
Hamilton Homestead…Porpoise Point
Hamilton Homestead…Wood Key Cove
Atwells, Tuckers, Walter Hamilton…First Bay
Leon Hamilton…….Highland Point
And My favorite of favorites The Watson Place on the Chatham River. Notorious Serial Murderer of the day. You could feel the evil walking around, My Better 1/2 wouldn’t even get out of the boat. It takes a lot to creep me out and Watson Place definitely had bad JuJu. Vigilantes gunned him down at the dock at the Smallwood Store in Chokoloskee.
Edgar Watson also murdered the famous outlaw Belle Starr. He’s buried in the Ft Myers Cemetery.

 

[RayHeezy]

I think that in order to see more of what the teller of the settlement actually saw, it would be best to see the area as it was contemporary to the time he saw it. Here is John Lee Williams map from 1837, just a few years after the settlement was spotted. Williams map is highly respected for accuracy for he actually visited Florida and made extensive notes on its geography...View attachment 2136595

I can't quite make out what it says just above the words pine Island. I also didn't realize Sanibel had a town large enough to denote such large bold writing back then.
I love reading the history of this area and then going on a walk or adventure and think about the things that were happening on the same ground I stand on.
Flipper, I'm familiar with most of the names and places on your list, roughly, and have a trip to Watson's place set up this summer. I hear the cistern is still there. Would love to get feet on the ground in First Bay, maybe a shallow water detector dive. Unsure if that's fair game out out there.

 

[Flipperfla]

I can't quite make out what it says just above the words pine Island. I also didn't realize Sanibel had a town large enough to denote such large bold writing back then.
I love reading the history of this area and then going on a walk or adventure and think about the things that were happening on the same ground I stand on.
Flipper, I'm familiar with most of the names and places on your list, roughly, and have a trip to Watson's place set up this summer. I hear the cistern is still there. Would love to get feet on the ground in First Bay, maybe a shallow water detector dive. Unsure if that's fair game out out there.

The cistern, farm machinery, small dock are there. It is a designated campsite so you can camp there. It’s a pretty good ride to get there. IMO I would plan your trip very soon. The best time I found is right after a big northern cold front blows thru in early spring, no skeeters. If you wait any longer we have been there where the skeeters were so bad you couldn’t even get out of you truck. Seriously the Glades can be a paradise or a trip thru hell.
Next week we are planning a trip on the Ocklawaha River to explore the site where Chief Osceola signed the famous Treaty and several Steamboat Landings.
Need any help or info let me know.

 

[RayHeezy]

I heard Ian destroyed the dock. Does normal state law apply to shallow water detecting out there?

 

[Flipperfla]

I heard Ian destroyed the dock. Does normal state law apply to shallow water detecting out there?

Yeah, you are in the Park Boundary. Detecting off limits. Last time we were at the Watson Place a Ranger cruised by so their out there. Most of the wildlife is gone just like everywhere else.

 

[villagenut]

I can't quite make out what it says just above the words pine Island. I also didn't realize Sanibel had a town large enough to denote such large bold writing back then.
I love reading the history of this area and then going on a walk or adventure and think about the things that were happening on the same ground I stand on.
Flipper, I'm familiar with most of the names and places on your list, roughly, and have a trip to Watson's place set up this summer. I hear the cistern is still there. Would love to get feet on the ground in First Bay, maybe a shallow water detector dive. Unsure if that's fair game out out there

I can't quite make out what it says just above the words pine Island. I also didn't realize Sanibel had a town large enough to denote such large bold writing back then.
I love reading the history of this area and then going on a walk or adventure and think about the things that were happening on the same ground I stand on.
Flipper, I'm familiar with most of the names and places on your list, roughly, and have a trip to Watson's place set up this summer. I hear the cistern is still there. Would love to get feet on the ground in First Bay, maybe a shallow water detector dive. Unsure if that's fair game out out there.

The little island above pine island is marked "Taompe Island or Caldes"...of interest may be what John Lee Williams noted in his book as he explored the coast. He described it as being 1 mile long, and was inhabited by the Calde family,perhaps the bad ones.

 

[RayHeezy]

The little island above pine island is marked "Taompe Island or Caldes"...of interest may be what John Lee Williams noted in his book as he explored the coast. He described it as being 1 mile long, and was inhabited by the Calde family,perhaps the bad ones.View attachment 2136892View attachment 2136893

Beautiful information! Which John Lee Williams book did that come from? I have multiple in my next thrift books order lol. I feel like I've heard of the Caldes family before, but can't quite pinpoint where. Looking at updated maps currently to try and figure out one that matches the description in your book. Being in that pine Island sound, most definitely off limits on land, but I'm a fiend for the 2 ft waterline shallows.

on another note, the muspa identification also is a little confusing. Muspa, as far as I know was used to describe more of the Marco Island/ten thousand Island area, Carlos/Carlos was used more for this area as far as I know. Is this another mistaken identity like so many other histories we have in the state?

 

[villagenut]

Here is the title page from his 1837 book and another few snippets from the west coast exploration. He included a ton of info on all of the bays,rivers and islands....

 

[RayHeezy]

Here is the title page from his 1837 book and another few snippets from the west coast exploration. He included a ton of info on all of the bays,rivers and islands....View attachment 2137036View attachment 2137037View attachment 2137038

Awesome! I found it on the library of congress and made it through. What a wonderful book. Although I'm still not sure which island could be the one, I wouldn't be able to investigate either way due to the preserve. Another foiled idea, but I'm wondering what this Senate Bill 1012 will change and allow access in my immediate back yard.

 

[villagenut]

One more point to peruse...he described Pine island as being 2 miles wide and only 5 miles long. I don't think he failed to give correct info, rather, I believe the island (modern day)has merged with other bars including that Caldes Island making it some three times longer today. perhaps the northern tip once the one mile long island that was described in your research. he also described that island as being East of the harbor entrance, so the reference to South East of The bay may be somewhat something to reason on......