A little bit on why Frequency Discriminators work.

[signal_line]

xfu

 

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[aarthrj3811]

I realize most people do not understand much about LRL's. Some of the pushers understand that all too well. The price tag is the wrong place to look. many units cost about five dollars to build and they sell them for several hundreds and they are little more than a bent coat hanger on a swivel handle.

Gee...the box that LRl’s are in would cost more than 5 dollars..If you are dowsing a set of bent coat hangers will work but are no where near the best kind of Rods.

"Fake LRL" is probably not the right term--"Pretend LRL" is a lot closer because the user has to pretend they are not a disguised dowsing rod. Maybe "Placebo LRL" is more scientific-sounding.

Placebo LRL

1. a harmless pill, medicine, or procedure prescribed more for the psychological benefit to the patient than for any physiological effect.

"his Aunt Beatrice had been kept alive on sympathy and placebos for thirty years"

• a substance that has no therapeutic effect, used as a control in testing new drugs.
• a measure designed merely to calm or please someone.

If I remember right Frequency Discriminators send out a signal to the objects. Crystal Radios are receivers of signals from radio transmitters and depend on how good the antenna is at that station.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Nothing extrordinary there. Radio receivers (and metal detectors) work because a signal is being transmitted for them to receive.

Lets move from how and why crystal or other frequency focusing devices work and try and explain what it is they would be trying to receive that would help pinpoint distant objects.

 

[woof!]

Clever crystal set trick, Mike.
Crystal Radios "Stay Tuned" Crystal Sets
Did some darn good crystal sets when I was a kid, DX'ed the Wolfman from Sac'to despite strong local stations. Also built vacuum tube regens and superregens. The "exalted carrier BFO" crystal set trick I hadn't seen done before, but the physical principle is the same as doing a receiver using an NE602 for direct conversion. I've done both DSB and SSB NE602 longwave beacon receivers, the little handheld SSB was raced against a very expensive rig at the Redwoods LOWFERFEST about 1988 and was very nearly as good. Probably would have been better had I used critically dampened audio bandpass filters. Redwoods is also where I demo'd synchronously demodulated BPSK earth conduction communication straddling the Schumann fundamental.


This may come as a shock to you, but it isn't supernatural majick, much less does it have anything to do with LRL's. There are people who actually get paid to design and build stuff that actually works, it's called "engineering". Resonance in particular has been understood for I suppose about 200 years, and anyone who does RF engineering understands it and doesn't get all gushy superstitious about it. In interviewing engineers, I ask 'em about it. Shockingly most EE grads nowadays don't know what kids knew back in the 50's.

That Meyl guy you're so enamored with, he's a stage performer, just like Amazing Randi was for so many years. Skilled in the art of taking something quite ordinary, and convincing gullibillies that they're witnessing something fantastic, almost supernatural, and beyond the ken of mere mortals. Fifty years ago he'd have been laughed off the stage, but these are not smarter times we're living in these days.

[EDIT] This one's my favorite, since it wastes less than 15 minutes:

[ANOTHER EDIT] Since Mike's fascinated by WiTricity, here's the link: http://witricity.com/technology/
The technology is ordinary near-field radio engineering, not supernatural majick. Although company's hype regarding its potential application is, well, a bit overenthusiastic.


Nikola Tesla was history's first real radio engineer, but he wasn't the last. His actual technological impact was in AC power distribution, obsoleting Edison's DC based power distribution systems. Tesla was a showman himself with the RF stuff because he was trying to drum up financing for his RF stuff from which he'd been sidelined for business and political reasons. The result was the evolution of a Tesla worship fan club among people who don't understand radio engineering but who do love to pretend that science fiction is real. Engineers who design and build stuff that actually works respect Tesla as an engineer but don't go off the deep end wanting to believe he demoed science beyond the ken of mere mortals. It's the people who can't produce anything that works who comprise the Tesla worship fan club. And that, my friends, is why showmen like Meyl love to invoke Tesla: there's a ready-made audience wanting to be conned.

[YET MORE EDIT!] Notice that neither the con man Meyl nor the exaggerators WiTricity make any claim that their schtick has anything to do with LRL's. They probably never even heard of LRL's. All that is just Mike's imagination.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Did some darn good crystal sets when I was a kid, DX'ed the Wolfman from Sac'to despite strong local stations.

I grew up in Fair Oaks. It was a big deal to get Wolfman Jack on your set. It was not that hard. I played a lot with CB radios and antennas and learned how to get the most out of both. Most of it is just common sense.During my younger years when I wanted to learn something I would go to College. Uncle Sam would pay me to do this. So if you are a GI I think you should consider this. Heck, when I wanted to learn how to weld I went to college. You have an advantage over many students as you already know how to work. You do not have to worry about grades or taking required classes as you are there for one thing only. To learn something that you want to learn.
.Art

 

[woof!]

Art, I grew up in Carmichael, and also built a lot of crystal sets. KFBK and KCRA were so strong, and crystal sets usually have such poor selectivity (you have to load the resonant circuit to get listenable signal out of it), that the main objective was just to get enough separation between KFBK and KCRA to listen to the one without being distracted by the other. Lucky Lager Dance Time! when my folks thought I was asleep in bed. (And by sheer coincidence, while I was listening to Buddy Holly, they were taking Peggy Sue's graduation photos.) At night with a well built set I could occasionally get KGO which was a clear channel station, but although that was on skip I didn't really count it as DX. Only person whom I knew in Sac to succeed in real DX on a barefoot crystal set was me. Got XERB on a somewhat regular basis and snagged KSL (another clear channel station) once. Of course that kind of DX was regular fare on any halfway decent AM radio.

In my longwave days in the late 1980's in Los Banos, I ran the Part 15 dahdidit didahdahdah beacon with ERP of about 13 microwatts. With my NE602 home-brew receiver I was able to pick it up on groundwave out to about 100 miles in good locations. Other guys with fancy equipment listening at night got it on skip up to about 200 miles. With a com receiver, people back then listened to shortwave from all over the world.

In the late 60's I took the GI bill for a test drive and found out in a hurry that I didn't like college any more than I did high school. Just didn't work for me. Fortunately college isn't the only way to learn stuff, I've got other ways including making bookstores (remember Beer's Bookstore downtown Sac?) rich. Best deal I ever snagged there was back in my climatology-agriculture-rangescience-hydrology era. The world-famous grasses & range scientist Professor Love of UC Davis expired, and his library went to Beer's. They had it down in the basement and were hoping to get a bid on the entire collection. Of course there aren't very many of that kind of buyers! When they figured out that at least I was serious about the books, they let me into the collection, and I cherrypicked about a hundred pounds of books and said I'm interested in these. Well, with a guy standing right there willing to spend a schittload of money, they kissed their "all or nothing" rule goodbye and I drove back to Oakland with the best of Dr. Love's library in the trunk of the car. .......Decades later, most of those books wound up at Zephyr Books on Virginia St. in Reno (owned by my family), so there's a good possibility you've seen the very books I'm talking about.

Have a good day.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Yes woof we are not to far apart. I took a course in what used to be called Flow through technology. I learned how to work with plus and minus voltage on cards. Of course I found a better way to get the job done...Art

 

[woof!]

The people who know, are qualified to make judgments about the assertions of people who don't understand the subject matter so they just make up a bunch of stuff and try to pass it off as facts. That's what "being qualified" means.

If you want to know what Meyl's doing in the video, just watch the video. Just like the frying pan on the forehead guy, everything you need to know is right there. A lot of videos about bogus stuff involve hidden contraptions and other stuff tricks, but a lot of bogus stuff is done entirely in the open or sufficiently in the open so if you understand what's going on, finding the smoking gun is pretty easy. For some con men, arranging the con with all the evidence in plain sight is what makes it so much fun to pull the con.

If you want to know why lines of force concentrate around dipoles, no need to ask either me or Meyl, just go take a high school physics class. This is really simple stuff and just because Meyl tries to make it look like supernatural magic from SuperTesla the Archangel doesn't mean you have to be conned by his stage act. But you can, if you want to. Your choice. He's obviously having a lot of fun providing entertainment.

If it makes you feel any better, I stumbled across a Morin perpetual motion machine video a couple nights ago. I'm watching it and thinking again, that guy is still at it after all these years, he hasn't upped his game, it's the same silly stuff as it was back in the dark ages? Do you think he doesn't pay his electric bill just like the rest of us do? How is anyone duped by this stuff? And the funny thing is, I already know how people get duped by it. There's a wack but appealing salespitch that they want desperately to "believe", and that desperate quest to keep hope alive stops them from seeing the obvious.

28 May 2015 NEWS UPDATE: HE'S BACK!
http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/...s-of-all-time/ss-BBjCirs?ocid=AARDHP#image=10
Yeah, but how many frying pans all at once?

So, does this prove that LRL's work, or does it prove how they work? I think a good case can be made for the latter.........

 

[aarthrj3811]

I think he said there are over 100 universities who bought a set. If you want to learn about frequency discriminators read up on Meyl. Why do the lines of force (signal line) from the longitudinal waves bundle up at the target?

Experimental- and Demo-Kit
As a result of common demand and frequently asked questions during the breaks and after the recitations of Prof. Dr. Meyl (e.g. how does an energy transmission line work? and what kind of single components have to be used? etc) we decided to develop a demonstration-kit and an experimentation-kit to allow interested practitioners to gain experience and to make experiments by themselves. So with these two kits you are able to research the characteristics of Tesla coils, dependency of the resonant frequency concerning position and size of the ball electrode and varieties of the systems resonance depending on changes of the distance between transmitter and receiver by yourself. The main goal is to achieve reproducible measurements, which cannot be done by a simple instruction guide but otherwise doubters often only believe in results of measurements acquired by their own devices. Therefore connection possibilities for external measuring devices are provided.

As far as I know I have not used a device that had a Tesla Coil in it and I know I have never dug a piece of gold that had a receiver in it. I have used devices where I have followed signals to the target and also have used devices where I followed the return signal to the target. Both kinds of signals have been very good for me. You have to understand that Natural Gold has been hiding for millions of years and does not have any modern technology

 

[aarthrj3811]

Yeah, more phony skeptic "logic". "They shall wail and gnash their teeth outside the gates..."

Yes that is what you are doing. I tell people how my LRL’s work. It is not very hard to understand. You keep making excuses for not being able to use one using the normal method..Art

 

[woof!]

www.amasci.com/tesla/teceive.html

The funny thing about that link, is where it's being posted. Here! In "LRL" and "over unity" "free power" etc. forums, usually only bogus stuff is wanted, and the moment the name "Tesla" is invoked (the guy is no longer around to defend himself against the assertions of fraudsters who make claims on him), serious science is rejected out of hand as a matter of principle. Since it's all about the pitch and not about whether anything works or not, the guys who pitch free energy stuff make sure to pay their monthly electric bill just like the rest of us. That(!), after all, is Tesla's greatest invention, it works.

In the link above, the author isn't a fraudster, he's actually somewhat well informed in radio engineering. Mostly pretty good science. And when he engages in hypothesis and speculation, he uses words like "if". On a radio engineering forum, the essay would be regarded as a pretty good piece by amateur standards, and he put some serious thought into the more speculative areas (independently of whether the speculation is actually correct or not). He'd be an interesting guy to have on an engineering team.

So, why would the author invoke the name "Tesla"? Well, it helps get attention to a website title, good marketing. But more to the point, the essay is primarily about electromagnetic resonance, Tesla (not Marconi et al.) was history's first real radio engineer, and what Tesla did seemed like magic to other scientists and engineers of his day. The mystery led to the emergence of a cult following. Mainstream radio engineering didn't catch up until about the 1930's or so. To people with no background in radio engineering, it still all seems like magic. If magic and not science is what they want, rather than taking a physics class at the local community college they plug into the Tesla cult since it's still available to plug into and it's well advertised on the Internet.

In other words, the Tesla cult really doesn't have anything to do with Tesla or with gadgets that work by unknown forces. It's all about psychology and sociology.

And, thanks for the link, Signal. It's nice to be vindicated, doubly sweet considering where it came from.

 

[atomicscott]

I don't post much of my info just because someone always has to take a dump on it. I rarely read woof's posts because he is on my IGNORE list, but i read one here about the ideas are near field radio engineering technology not superstitious magick. DUH! Actually "Physics" is a more correct term. But no sense trying to convince a skeptic. LOL Biased beyond belief. It's like if I say it, a skeptic immediately assumes I am superstitious. That's why skeptics are not qualified to make any judgements. In other words, stick with your metal detectors. I own a Meyl set of coils and electrodes. I think he said there are over 100 universities who bought a set. If you want to learn about frequency discriminators read up on Meyl. Why do the lines of force (signal line) from the longitudinal waves bundle up at the target?

Not sure why one would want to 'ignore' one of the best engineers in the metal detecting industry. I for one, am always interested in what Dave has to say, whether I agree with him or not (though I usually do, lol). Thanks Dave, for your contributions to the industry as well as the forums.

 

[atomicscott]

Yeah, the propaganda tactics have been used to sell metal detectors for as long as I have been detecting (1970's). The Garrett metal detectors have been the top sellers for years now.

Wow I am shocked that with 3 different brands FTP puts out, Garrett is top in sales? Garrett does not seem to be on the cutting edge as far as new features & new machines IMO.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

FTP is not associated with Garrett.

Garrett is a top seller because they make a solid, working and workable product and advertise to attract the first time buyers. But then they back that up with additional models that satisfy those that do want to move up. Walk through an airport or courthouse and you will notice a LOT of Garrett equipment used in the screening at security points. There is a reason for that. You won't see a policeman waving "L" rods at someone. ;-)

 

[atomicscott]

FTP is not associated with Garrett.

Garrett is a top seller because they make a solid, working and workable product and advertise to attract the first time buyers. But then they back that up with additional models that satisfy those that do want to move up. Walk through an airport or courthouse and you will notice a LOT of Garrett equipment used in the screening at security points. There is a reason for that. You won't see a policeman waving "L" rods at someone. ;-)

Who thinks FTP is associated with Garrett? I was simply surprised that with all the models FTP produces, Garrett was still top seller. I had never even thought about the commercial side of the industry. As far as consumer/hobby detectors, the Garretts really do not interest me much. The fact that Garrett rules the security wand/commercial security market, does not want to make me rush to buy their metal detectors.

 

[woof!]

Well, the LRL crowd will be please to note that "molecular frequency resonance" really does exist. That's not exactly news in physical chemistry.


Excerpt from a woof!post in the ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease) TDI forum where we're discussing the details of how the antioxidant enzyme zinc-copper superoxide dismutase 1 converts superoxide to peroxide (or doesn't, when the enzyme is not formed correctly).

*****************************.

Up to a point, the dismutation of superoxide by the catalytic reaction zone of SOD1 can be explained in terms of statistical expectations via classical thermodynamics & mechanics. However if you start asking questions about the details of what goes on in the energy exchanges involved in an individual dismutation event made possible by catalysis, there comes a point at which a look in any further greater resolution leads to the superposition of Schroedinger's Cat with the Cheshire Cat, and the world of time and space we take for granted in classical physics vanishes. .....Stretching that a bit further (more "layman's explanation"), the catalytic zone is (in the classical world) an electric field of a density and shape which is a good match to the energy barrier between the superoxide and peroxide states. The peroxide state has a lower energy level than the superoxide state but to get from A to B you have to climb the fence and the height of the fence is greater than what's readily available from thermal agitation at body temperature. The electric field of the catalytic zone supplies the energy needed to overcome the energy barrier, provided that you can get the superoxides kicked into the goal zone. (The problem with aggregation is that it blocks access to the goal zone.)

The reaction is exothermic. electronic rearrangement comprising the dismutation exerts electrical forces on the zinc-copper structure, the electric field itself is in a state of linear superposition in the classical sense, and its forces propagate at relativistic speed. If in looking at a specific dismutation event in progress you try to resolve in fine detail what is happening where and when, and the forces involved are primarily electric fields convolved with variables of molecular position and momentum, you reach a point where the interaction between the catalyst and the reactants is relativistic and classic physics fails.

[FURTHER PONDERMENT OF THE WHICHNESS OF WHATZIT] The SOD1 molecule comprises a structure with multiple resonance modes, each with its own resonant frequency. Mechanical energy is transferred to and from the molecule preferentially at those frequencies and vibrational axes. The forces by which the energy is actually transferred are those of electric fields. Inasmuch as the molecule is an elastic structure with (presumably) a high mechanical Q, this means that phonon energy transfer to and from the molecule is not on a continuum. NOTE: according to this same line of reasoning, the optical properties of a nearly perfect crystal of potassium bicarbonate at thermal infrared wavelengths would exhibit a fine line structure.
The molecules associated with the superoxide to peroxide dismutation have their own resonances and likewise the force by which they act on other molecules (such as SOD1) is the electric field. Therefore to predict what will happen when superoxides enter the zone of influence of the catalyst, it is not enough to know the present positions of the molecules, their trajectories, and their velocities: their present energies of deformation and rotation must also be known. All these things work together to determine the statistical probability that a dismutation event will or will not occur. In the case of the SOD1 molecule alone, that's probably more than 100 degrees of freedom.

In principle it would be possible for peroxide created an instant prior, to revert back to a superoxide pair due to a change in the energy distribution resulting from all these degrees of freedom interacting. That's not the same thing as quantum superposition, but the effect is of that same character; there's a finite amount of time during the dismutation where the outcome may be either State A (no dismutation) or State B (dismutation). That "finite amount of time" is itself not an exact amount of time but a continuous shifting of outcome probabilities from State A to State B that's different for each event.

In electronics this is somewhat analogous to the phenomenon of timing jitter in a comparator being driven by signals of unknown rates of change or prior histories with comparator input thermal noise superimposed. The data sheet treats the comparator as having a deterministic transfer function but in real life it does not. The data sheet won't even admit that on low level signals below about 100 millivolts P-P the comparator exhibits flicker noise resulting from current path flow dependent on history (in solid materials, electrons like to play follow the leader unlike their mutual repulsion behavior seen in a vacuum) raising the noise floor far above thermal noise. In digital logic, logic gates can exhibit metastability during transitions such that even though the outcome of the transition is known, the length of time it will take for the transition to take place is a variable with the result that propagation delay is not a constant delta T even with perfect input signals.

So, looking at things like chemical reactions and electronic amplifiers from a non-quantum perspective, it becomes apparent that during state transitions the concept of determinism becomes more useless the more questions you ask about the details. And, it becomes apparent that the weaker the forces driving the state transition the greater the failure of determinism. It's the same thing in communications theory, as I think I explained in a prior post using analog vs. digital television as an example.

And in the case of dismutation of superoxide by SOD1, inasmuch as the forces involved are primarily those of electric fields which are continuous and (being in linear superposition) indistinguishable as to origin and which propagate at relativistic speed, and the positions of the charge carriers move in response to the field, there is a finite period of time when the process of dismutation is not localized on an about-to-exist peroxide, but is a process which is distributed through the entire system and does not have a "location". That's a conclusion that can be drawn from classical physics inclusive of electric field physics, without resort to quantum mechanics. But it sounds suspiciously like a quantum-mechanical description.

*************************** CAVEAT LECTOR, SPOILER ALERT! *********************************

"Long distance" in the foregoing molecular biology context is on the order of a few Angstroms. Angstroms are little tiny buggers, they're the measuring stick for atoms and small molecules. You can pretend all day that it's the same thing as a NE555 oscillator circuit and swivelly thingy indistinguishable from a dowsing rod pointing at "something", but that's an example of how to keep trying to make something work that was obviously doomed from the very start. Just like all those "over unity and/or Tesla magic" free energy inventors who for some reason make sure to pay their electric bill on time just like the rest of us mortals.

The explanation of LRL's and "free energy" gadgets is not in physics, it's in psychology. If beggars were wishes, horses would ride. If you're absolutely certain that something must be true because you want it to be true (as opposed to being open to factual evidence), then you'll find ways to convince yourself that it's true and evidence simply won't matter. It's fun to watch the "free energy" videos on YouTube and see how the "inventors" either deceive themselves into believing they're really onto something when they're obviously not; or worse yet they're so sure that it "ought to work" that they literally cheat to make it look like it's working for the sake of the video. What they obviously don't have is a free energy machine that works. ......It's the same thing with LRL advertising and videos, as well as what LRL users themselves say in forums. The "read the advertisement" principle.

 

[flgliderpilot]

Who thinks FTP is associated with Garrett? I was simply surprised that with all the models FTP produces, Garrett was still top seller. I had never even thought about the commercial side of the industry. As far as consumer/hobby detectors, the Garretts really do not interest me much. The fact that Garrett rules the security wand/commercial security market, does not want to make me rush to buy their metal detectors.

The reason they are popular is because they work. People pay money for things that work. I use a Garrett detector and I find stuff. I can post video of finding stuff. No coins under cups, no metal that I buried myself, no pipes that are in locations I know about already, none of those bs games that people play with dousing rods.

Bury a coin and I *will* find it if it is not too deep. Period. Dousing on the other hand relies on nothing but chance... which is why it *sometimes* seems to work and why people who do it claim it works. It works as well as walking around digging holes. Sometimes you find stuff in holes, after all the earth is littered with humans who litter the earth with stuff.

 

[aarthrj3811]

The reason they are popular is because they work. People pay money for things that work

Yes that is the reason why I buy my tools

Dousing on the other hand relies on nothing but chance... which is why it *sometimes* seems to work and why people who do it claim it works. It works as well as walking around digging holes. Sometimes you find stuff in holes, after all the earth is littered with humans who litter the earth with stuff.

Just more misinformation

 

[aarthrj3811]

Why aren't you taking that million dollars? Let the excuses begin.

That has been discussed for about 20 years. The question should be....How come no one has been allowed to take the test..Thousands have applied but can not qualify..

James Randi - His Amazing Role in the Great Psi Media Circus
To be fair, he has never claimed to be anything other than a showman, best expressed by his own remark,
'I am a charlatan, a liar, a thief and a fake altogether.'




Art

 

[aarthrj3811]

Randi agreed he might have
to pay up someday. But Dawkins had a trick up his sleeve. If a “psychic”
phenomenon turns out to be real, then by definition it is physical and
therefore not really psychic after all, and thus Randi still shouldn’t have to
pay.