accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

[itmaiden]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Thank you.

Any reference to an ID # on that plane or other identifiers ?

itmaiden

Bob Marx first found it back in the 60's. Unfortunately, it's been pretty well picked apart. Last time I was diving on it, the Indian River Shores fire dept or police dept. dive team were conducting training dives there and some members were bringing up pieces of it.

 

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[mad4wrecks]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

I recently attended an archaeological conference in which the archaeologist, a bright young guy who, besides conducting extensive literary and historical research, actually went out into the field to gather physical evidence, presented a paper on the Ais indians, in which he theorized that:

1) the St Lucie Inlet was almost assuredly not open in 1715
2) The Rio de Ais was not the Indian River Inlet (the old, former inlet north of the present Ft Pierce Inlet) as commonly believed.
3) The Indian River Inlet was a very wide and deep inlet and was open until the early 1900's
4) There was an inlet in the Winter Beach area which was the actual Rio de Ais (or Barra de Ais) or Inlet of the Ais
5) Barra de Ais did not refer to a "barrier island" but rather an inlet, or more specifically, the bar across the mouth of the inlet.
6) That Lima et al (and other mariners of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries) were regularly off in their latitude readings by an average of 5-10 degrees or more.
7) it is more important to understand the average error in degrees when calculating distances, and rely on league estimates, than it is to rely on actual latitudes reported in archival documents.

So, if all of this is true, what could someone intimately familiar with the history 1715 fleet story infer from these theories?

 

[billinstuart]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Where's winter beach?

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Indian River Shores.

 

[billinstuart]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

OK. There WAS an inlet in the vicinity of Vero for many years. I've researched charts from Romans forward, and agree with Mad. Inlets have been few and far between, and have appeared/disappeared for centuries. Just look at the recent hurricanes..Mother Nature wanted a new inlet at the house of refuge and at least one north of the nuke plant. Unfortunately, she forgot to apply for the proper permits and they were closed off.

As for the "bar" of the Ais, makes sense. All Florida inlets had a delta or "bar" across the mouth, which meandered about due to a number of factors. Our last example of a natural inlet is Matanzas, but all were similar.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

yes both nature and mans diverting of water caused changes in the inlets --the lack of water flow due to the water being diverted for rice and other crops would allow inlets that had been kept open by the natural outward flow of water to silt in closing them over time.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

The new information is groundbreaking.

Many researchers have been lead to believe (me included) that Lima was off the St. Lucie inlet somewhere (the mouth of a river) due to his latitude calculation. But the St Lucie inlet wasn't open in 1715. The latitude reading is way off (as were several others). The Indian River Inlet was open, and was known to be a rather wide inlet. There is also a circa early 18th century shipwreck there. No one has ever found a ballast pile at the St Lucie inlet despite extensive searching.

Also, the Rio de Ais or Barra de Ais was not the Old Indain River inlet, but was located in Indian River shores. There are numerous mentions in the Haskin report of the Barra or Rio de Ays and everyone assumed (and based their theories and calculations) on this being the old inlet at Ft Pierce.

 

[GOHO]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

I agree that the ocean would breach the dune and create inlets after storms. Sometimes these inlets would stay open for many years and sometimes just the opposite. Maybe St Lucie inlet was closed in 1715 but i do not believe that Indian River Inlet was. I have several old maps that show Indian River Inlet in the same place and open also Bernard Romans mentions it as being open and he was here just 45 years after the 1715 disaster. St Lucie Inlet has opened and closed many times and it is possible that it was closed in 1715 but that does not change the account of Lima or that his ship is not down that far. Lima dosen't even mention an inlet just that he is at the mouth of a river and he also discribes the area he is in almost to the tee the way Bernard Romans discribes St Lucie area... I still believe that Lima is down near St Lucie....

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

I am not arguing that the Old Indian River Inlet was closed in 1715, (it was open and was a wide and prominent inlet-the only one on the treasure coast in early 18th century that could be describe as "at the mouth of a river") just that when archival documents refer to the Barra or Rio de Ays, they are referring to the now closed inlet at Winter Beach, not the one down at Ft Pierce. Winter Beach was the true "inlet of the Ais."

In part, to reach this conclusion, the archaeologist retraced Dickinson's journey in 1696 up the coast of Florida. He also relied on maps and documentation Mexia, Brahms and Romans to reach these new conslusions. (and he points out their errors)

The fact that really stood out in the presentation is the Spanish were often times far off in their latitude readings. (There is some 1715 documentation that has the fleet wrecked at 28.10)

 

[GOHO]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Ok, The document that you are talking about did not say the Fleet wrecked there but one ship and that is where Rex Stalker has a wreck.... So i would have to say the Spanish were closer than most people think. Also remember that Spanish used different measure than English..... You cant take a Spanish Latitude and place it on an English chart and expect to get the right position, you have to convert it.

Here is a quote from Bernard Romans talking about St Lucie Inlet..

"From this mouth of the river southward the sound is cut into branches, by means of two peninsulas of mangroves, divided from the main island by these lagoons; the branch which disembogues itself at is shallow, and full of oyster banks, about fourteen miles long; however, a small schooner, drawing five feet water, was by our people brought through here and out at This inlet was shut for many years before 1769, but I have since seen it open till 1773, our people have been encamped on the same spot where now the water allows egress and regress to such a craft as the above-mentioned schooner, just sufficient to pass it: This, I suppose, has been owing to a less quantity of water coming down St. Lucie river for some years, because the Spaniards informed me of its having been open before.In short, this part of the country is such a curiosity, that I have many times lamented the want of leisure, and means to explore it thoroughly."


[/colo

 

[itmaiden]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

There won't be a ballast pile if the ship did not break apart and spill the ballast. Remember, the Lima was punctured in the right side by one of the masts which caused it to sink. There is a ship laying on it's right side just out of the jetty a short ways on the left sitting on a reef.

itmaiden

The new information is groundbreaking.

Many researchers have been lead to believe (me included) that Lima was off the St. Lucie inlet somewhere (the mouth of a river) due to his latitude calculation. But the St Lucie inlet wasn't open in 1715. The latitude reading is way off (as were several others). The Indian River Inlet was open, and was known to be a rather wide inlet. There is also a circa early 18th century shipwreck there. No one has ever found a ballast pile at the St Lucie inlet despite extensive searching.

Also, the Rio de Ais or Barra de Ais was not the Old Indain River inlet, but was located in Indian River shores. There are numerous mentions in the Haskin report of the Barra or Rio de Ays and everyone assumed (and based their theories and calculations) on this being the old inlet at Ft Pierce.

 

[GOHO]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Actually there should be a large ballast pile because Lima's ship wrecked intact and they burnt it to the water line. His ship wrecked between two reefs...

 

[GOHO]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Here is another interesting quote from Bernard Romans..... "Rio d' Ais" is the Spanish word for the Indian River not the Inlet....


"To return to our topographical account :-along this southern lagoon, which extends itself for about forty miles to Cape Cannaveral, in the latitude of 28 degrees and a half, we find several settlements of good note, among which that of Captain Rogers is the most meridional habitation on the British continent. At Cape Cannaveral is some good plantable land, and here is the southern head of this lagoon; about two miles and an half to the westward thereof is the head or northern end of another branch, likewise called a river; a road is cut to draw boats out of the Musketo Lagoon into this, which is called South-hillsborough by De Braham but commonly called Indian River; the savages call it Aisa Hatcha, i.e., Deer River, although the same elegant Hexiphanes has made it Hysweeslake; a word by him fabricated, I suppose, from Ylacco, the name given by the savages to St. John's River; .the Spaniards call it Reo d’ Ais. No rivers of any note fall into its northern branch, except St. Sebastians, directly opposite to whose mouth happened the shipwreck of the Spanish Admiral, who was the northermost wreck of fourteen galleons, and a hired Dutch ship, all laden with specie and plate; which by stress of north east winds were drove ashore and lost on this coast, between this place and the bleach-yard, in 1715. A hired Frenchman, fortunately escaped, by having steered half a point more east than the others. The people employed in the course of our survey, while walking the strand, after strong eastern gales, have repeatedly found pistareens and double pistareens, which kinds of money probably yet remaining in the wrecks, are sometimes washed up by the surf in hard winds. This Lagoon stretches parallel to the sea, until the latitude 27 :20, where it has an out-watering, or mouth: directly before this mouth, in three fathoms water, lie the remains of the Dutch Wreck."

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Was the Urca de lima the only Dutch ship in the 1715 fleet?

 

[ivan salis]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

well the "dutch prize" vessel taken by Echeverz could have been dutch built maybe but it was recorded as being rather small in size --its also known by the following "titles" --La Olandesa --(the dutch) ---Olandesa -(dutch)--senor de la popa -- and -- senor san miguel

 

[itmaiden]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Are you sure it was burnt to the water line ? If so, maybe "my ship" is an older vessel.

itmaiden

Actually there should be a large ballast pile because Lima's ship wrecked intact and they burnt it to the water line. His ship wrecked between two reefs...

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

There is an intact ballast pile between two reefs at the site of the old Indian River inlet (which was open in 1715 and could easily be described as "the mouth of a river")

 

[GOHO]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

This is an account of Lima.....


19 Oct 1715 - Havana, Don Miguel de Lima y Melo to Viceroy of Mexico.

"...All of the ships, with the exception of mine, broke to pieces. My ship stayed intact for 30 days after this disaster until we recovered part of the cargo and then burned the ship."

 

[GOHO]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

I recently attended an archaeological conference in which the archaeologist, a bright young guy who, besides conducting extensive literary and historical research, actually went out into the field to gather physical evidence, presented a paper on the Ais indians, in which he theorized that:

1) the St Lucie Inlet was almost assuredly not open in 1715
2) The Rio de Ais was not the Indian River Inlet (the old, former inlet north of the present Ft Pierce Inlet) as commonly believed.
3) The Indian River Inlet was a very wide and deep inlet and was open until the early 1900's
4) There was an inlet in the Winter Beach area which was the actual Rio de Ais (or Barra de Ais) or Inlet of the Ais
5) Barra de Ais did not refer to a "barrier island" but rather an inlet, or more specifically, the bar across the mouth of the inlet.
6) That Lima et al (and other mariners of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries) were regularly off in their latitude readings by an average of 5-10 degrees or more.
7) it is more important to understand the average error in degrees when calculating distances, and rely on league estimates, than it is to rely on actual latitudes reported in archival documents.

So, if all of this is true, what could someone intimately familiar with the history 1715 fleet story infer from these theories?

I have to disagree with this bright young Archaeologist... Bernard Romans studied the area and does not mention anything about an inlet in winter beach... He says that the only inlets Between Cape Canaveral and the Bleach Yard were Indian River and St Lucie. This man would know....

 

[billinstuart]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Goho, you're presenting VERY interesting stuff.

I've only seen a couple of charts showing the Vero inlet, and all postdate Romans.

As for an inlet at Stuart, your description of the lagoon becoming mangroves is a perfect description of the present area south of the present St. Lucie Inlet. It could also describe an inlet at Pecks lake or the wide area of the intercoastal north of it near the end of the state park. My question is..this area has that longshore HARD reef that would impede both boat travel and waterflow, except for Packs Lake. There was an inlet that opened at Pecks Lake in the 1960's, btw.