Adios amigos

[whydahdiver]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...-catalogue-all-historic-shipwrecks-180972836/


WD

 

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[enrada]

If anybody gets to look at the list, can you see if there is a section of wrecks that contained tons of mercury that is turned into Methyl Mercury and polluting the food chain.

 

[BillA]

Spain is merely grabbing all that a foolish law permits, anyone would do the same.
all governments are thieves (majority - with guns - rule)

 

[Pick_axe]

If the Spanish didn't have the balls or wind to recover it themselves they don't deserve it.

 

[Bum Luck]

I knew about this, but wondered about the motivation.

Thought I'd kick back with a beer and watch n see what happens.

Spain is merely grabbing all that a foolish law permits, anyone would do the same.
all governments are thieves (majority - with guns - rule)

They are doing well in our courts lately; that may be it.

On the other hand, their history "over here" isn't as wonderful as they probably think it is.

 

[xaos]

If anybody gets to look at the list, can you see if there is a section of wrecks that contained tons of mercury that is turned into Methyl Mercury and polluting the food chain.

What is your point?

You make it seem like Treasure Hunters should be allowed to recover the shipwrecks to recover the Mercury and get it out of the food chain?

When was the last time anyone ever recovered Mercury from a shipwreck? When was the last time anyone even saw Mercury on these shipwrecks? You may find a little here and there, as they carried this to cure syphilis...

Look at the vast amount recovered from the Atocha!



https://www.academia.edu/2056690/Mercury_on_a_Galleon

There are ships noted in the inventory that were carrying large amounts of Mercury TO the New World... go for it!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/01/spain-logs-shipwrecks-maritime-past-weather-pirates

 

[Boatlode]

What is your point?

You make it seem like Treasure Hunters should be allowed to recover the shipwrecks to recover the Mercury and get it out of the food chain?

When was the last time anyone ever recovered Mercury from a shipwreck? When was the last time anyone even saw Mercury on these shipwrecks? You may find a little here and there, as they carried this to cure syphilis...

Look at the vast amount recovered from the Atocha!

View attachment 1746176

https://www.academia.edu/2056690/Mercury_on_a_Galleon

There are ships noted in the inventory that were carrying large amounts of Mercury TO the New World... go for it!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/01/spain-logs-shipwrecks-maritime-past-weather-pirates

Mercury (like copper) was property of the crown. It was used in the amalgam process to refine silver ore.

 

[BillA]

Mercury (like copper) was property of the crown. It was used in the amalgam process to refine silver ore.

so if they (Spain) identify the crown property, and it is (deemed to be) toxic; can they be compelled to remove it ?
or just take the treasure and leave the trash ?

 

[Alexandre]

I did. That's my hand, over there, getting mercury from in between frames of a Spanish late 16th century galleon.

What is your point? When was the last time anyone ever recovered Mercury from a shipwreck? When was the last time anyone even saw Mercury on these shipwrecks?

 

[Red_desert]

Catalog the wrecks, plan on searching for them some day, now Spain can say, that Spanish galleons will no longer be considered abandoned or unidentified shipwrecks.

 

[xaos]

Right, I stated that there will be small amounts of Mercury, because they carried it as medicine...point being, small amounts. To recover a wreck to take a small amount of mercury out of the food chain is not a valid argument.

Looking at Alexandres image, looks pretty intact after 400 years...and again, a very small amount.

To recover a Mercury wreck, with large amounts of Mercury (and no treasure) well, go for it.

Catalog the wrecks, plan on searching for them some day, now Spain can say, that Spanish galleons will no longer be considered abandoned or unidentified shipwrecks.

Very true.

 

[Alexandre]

we recovered about one gallon of it.

 

[BillA]

we recovered about one gallon of it.

I would not be happy paying for that gallon recovery, but as taxpayers we have no choice (any tax payer, any place)

ok, so the recovered gallon was a part of what ?
so the % recovered was what ?
the total cost for that % ?
so the estimated/calculated cost of recovery could be ___________
any remedial costs ?

would these costs be billable to Spain (or Portugal or whomever) ?

 

[Alexandre]

To us, the mercury was just any like any other artifact. We recovered it from the site, during the excavation.

Anyhow, in my opinion, the mercury, lying there, entombed within the shipwreck tumulus, not being mixed with water, not being agitated, was not a toxic stuff.

 

[ropesfish]

It's not hard to find references to Spanish galleons and large amounts of mercury:

As of 75 days ago, the Dominican Republic still wants this out of their waters, but no one wants to pay for the clean up.
https://learning.knoji.com/shipwrecks-and-treasure-the-spanish-quicksilver-galleons-of-1724/

As above, but with Captain Tracy Bowden: https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...0d-874a-486b-827d-96abbd19d277/?noredirect=on

an excerpt "They come from two ships, the Tolosa and the Guadalupe, which sailed from Spain in 1724 carrying 1,200 immigrants, sightseers and crew, a cargo of rich personal possessions and 400 tons of mercury."

Corey Malcolm's excellent paper on the Atocha mercury: https://www.academia.edu/2056690/Mercury_on_a_Galleon

La Galga...667 chests of mercury each weighing 150 lbs. About La Galga - The Hidden Galleon

or perhaps you would enjoy this paper about how mercury pollution still persists today: https://www.academia.edu/20927980/M...ast_mining_of_gold_and_silver_in_the_Americas

Hundreds of peer reviewed resources at academia.edu

 

[grossmusic]

so if they (Spain) identify the crown property, and it is (deemed to be) toxic; can they be compelled to remove it ?
or just take the treasure and leave the trash ?

Exactly my thought. If they want to claim all the recoveries from their shipwrecks, shouldn't they claim responsibility for all the pollution/harm/deaths their shipwrecks (& other ships) caused as well? All the peoples they wiped out? All the slaves they sent to their various fates, none good? Where's the reparations for that?

No intention to get off-topic political. It just seems that if you want to claim something, you must take the bad with the good.

 

[BillA]

follow that thought
1) Spain lists 'their' shipwrecks
2) Spain prepares, for each wrecksite, an Environmental Impact Report to enable assessment of the risk
3) Spain initiates, and completes, any remedial action necessitated by their​ shipwreck

but be realistic, we can't even start to clean up the huge messes we have ongoing in the onshore US

 

[xaos]

follow that thought
1) Spain lists 'their' shipwrecks
2) Spain prepares, for each wrecksite, an Environmental Impact Report to enable assessment of the risk
3) Spain initiates, and completes, any remedial action necessitated by their​ shipwreck

this entire conversation is so &$%#@, who knows where to begin.

Lets substitute.,.,,

) The United States lists 'their' shipwrecks
2) United States prepares, for each wrecksite, an Environmental Impact Report to enable assessment of the risk
3) United States initiates, and completes, any remedial action necessitated by their​ shipwreck.

So a WWII US ship has been sunk. Given the materials an ammunition, as well as mercury, and other material on board.

Given the size of a battleship vs the size of a historic Spanish treasure ship.

How many US ships were sunk in WWI...WW@, and all the other sinkings...

worried about a few pounds of inert mercury

who is polluting the ocean more?

 

[BillA]

"who is polluting the ocean more?" - I guess you are splitting wrecks into old and new groups ?

the point was to accept the responsibility of (claimed) ownership - applies to anyone; benefits, liabilities, whatever

btw, the EIR is to assess the necessity (or not) for remedial action

 

[Bum Luck]

Europe is cleaning up "their" battlefields of unexploded ordnance. As in sometimes the wars were not a voluntary event..............