Albert Pike?

[Walker Colt]

It is common to see in all the so-called “conspiracy theory”side of KGC research the claim that Albert Pike was a Knight. What is the evidence behind this claim? I understand that he knew Ben McCulloch who was known as a member of the KGC and proven to be by George W. L. Bickley and others. I know Stand Watie, another proven member of the knights served under Pike. What is the evidence that Pike was a member? The evidence I usually hear equates to this: Chuck Norris knew Jerry Jones, He also knew Troy Aikman, and he also lived in Dallas when he filmed Walker Texas Ranger. So obviously he was a Dallas Cowboy. Or you hear the claim that the KGC was part of the masonic fraternity which masons here on this board would know how ridiculous this claim is. There were around 250 secret society type fraternities in existence around the same time the KGC existed that had degrees, secret handshakes, due-guards, etc.
So is there any evidence? Claims from those who infiltrated the KGC? Or claims from known members? If it exists I would love to have proof that he was a member.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[Rebel - KGC]

De Facto member...?

 

[ECS]

His Pickwick Club of New Orleans meeting with Judah P Benjamin and John Slidell.

 

[Walker Colt]

His Pickwick Club of New Orleans meeting with Judah P Benjamin and John Slidell.

What is the source for Slidell and Benjamin being KGC? Slidell was a pro-expansionist so it is possible that he was. Not every pro-expansionist or pro-secessionist was KGC. What is the source that this meeting ever took place? If it is a modern book or article, what is the author's source? When I googled it all that came up was Illuminati type nonsense.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

LOL!

 

[senior deacon]

Walker Colt yes I agree with some of your argument. There is a incident that Hillbilly Bob tells in his book. While at his cabin along the Little Missouri in Arkansas a couple of ruffians were going to rob him. He and his servant loaded up his library and a large amount of gold coins. Some other he buried before departing. Why would he have a large amount of money? I do not think that it would be Masonic money. The treasurer has that duty. The Sovereign Grand Commander does not have that privilege. He may have had some of his own money or maybe KGC funds to hold and hide. I do have a theory about how they hide it in a manner that is consistent with the higher degrees of Scottish Rite Masonry. It works out perfectly if you believe what Hillbilly Bob writes in his book. The people he associated with were no doubt KGC. Especially the Cherokee that he was ask to lead. Most of the Native people who were lead into Free Masonry were done after the war. Today there is a Native American Masonic degree team that travels though out the United States to put on the degrees in both their native tongue and English and are highly sought after. They draw big crowds where ever they go. The direct influence of of Albert Pike 150 years ago.

The only thing I will say is where there is smoke there's fire. Just my opinion take it for what it's worth. It's worth what you paid for it.


Senior Deacon

 

[Walker Colt]

Walker Colt yes I agree with some of your argument. There is a incident that Hillbilly Bob tells in his book. While at his cabin along the Little Missouri in Arkansas a couple of ruffians were going to rob him. He and his servant loaded up his library and a large amount of gold coins. Some other he buried before departing. Why would he have a large amount of money? I do not think that it would be Masonic money. The treasurer has that duty. The Sovereign Grand Commander does not have that privilege. He may have had some of his own money or maybe KGC funds to hold and hide. I do have a theory about how they hide it in a manner that is consistent with the higher degrees of Scottish Rite Masonry. It works out perfectly if you believe what Hillbilly Bob writes in his book. The people he associated with were no doubt KGC. Especially the Cherokee that he was ask to lead. Most of the Native people who were lead into Free Masonry were done after the war. Today there is a Native American Masonic degree team that travels though out the United States to put on the degrees in both their native tongue and English and are highly sought after. They draw big crowds where ever they go. The direct influence of of Albert Pike 150 years ago.

The only thing I will say is where there is smoke there's fire. Just my opinion take it for what it's worth. It's worth what you paid for it.


Senior Deacon

Thank you SD. No I don't put too much faith into Brewer's book. Whether that story is true or not I have no idea. Brewer gets too much of the easy research wrong to buy into his KGC treasure fantasy (Quitman's shabrack comes to mind but haven't read it in years). At one time I thought about writing an article to refute some of his claims (and others) but then thought it wouldn't matter much anyway and at the time I was helping Keehn track down some things here in Texas for his book. I've been a Scottish Rite mason for about 10 years and have never seen anything KGC that you cannot find in other fraternities in existence at the time. I also took a trip to the House of the Temple library and found nothing. I keep an open mind but most of the internet articles and comments I read about the Knights is just pure fantasy and the sourcing for most of the claims is non-existent. People just claim it to be true or their source material is unreliable. I hope I can connect Pike to them but right now it is just the Chuck Norris argument.

 

[rennes]

Walker Colt. I find it strange you degrade a book that has such a bibliograpy. I have read most of the references in that book and one plainly states where Pike got all his gold. Why don't you do some real research before you spout off about something so easily checked. If you were a 32nd degree Scottish Rite you should know exactly how the KGC/*** buried its treasure. It's well explained in the book you don't believe.

 

[Walker Colt]

Walker Colt. I find it strange you degrade a book that has such a bibliograpy. I have read most of the references in that book and one plainly states where Pike got all his gold. Why don't you do some real research before you spout off about something so easily checked. If you were a 32nd degree Scottish Rite you should know exactly how the KGC/*** buried its treasure. It's well explained in the book you don't believe.

The point of this thread was to find evidence that Albert Pike was a KGC. So since you claim that Brewer's bibliography is so good please show us where he cites a credible source (statement by a proven member, evidence from spies who infiltrated the KGC, a newspaper article from the era, an expose' by a former member. etc.) that claims that he was. Maybe I missed it when I read the book many years ago. I'm not here to debate whether the treasure exists or not. I do not find his story convincing. The scholarly treatments of the Knights haven't come up with anything on Pike being a member so I am asking the people who make the claim that he was to provide me a credible source.
https://m.facebook.com/KnightsoftheGoldenCircle58/

 

[Clueman]

Have you asked his family? If you really don't believe the obvious, ask his family. Not in Mena anymore........try Eureka Springs.
If you have difficulty finding the Grandson / G Grandson , ask a researcher to help you.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

MAYBE the House of THE TEMPLE in DC has the answers... been there twice. "AP's" bones are interred in the wall; didn't spend any time in the RESEARCH LIBRARY, which is "on-line". "WOWSTER" of a place; yes, I was 32nd SR/SJ.

 

[Walker Colt]

I researched Albert Pike's personal library records at the House of the Temple for anything KGC and when I asked them about it they had never heard of the KGC.

 

[elh]

I researched Albert Pike's personal library records at the House of the Temple for anything KGC and when I asked them about it they had never heard of the KGC.

POSSIBLE PROOF.

 

[franklin]

A leader like Albert Pike and his KGC works are hard to find just like Jesse James, Frank James and their involvement with the KGC, hard to find but there are hints of possibilities such as this link? knights-of-the-golden-circle-blogspot.com/2011/12/albert-pike-freesmasonary. It has some of your 32rd degree masons getting their ranks from Albert Pike. Would not that make him leader of the KGC or one of the leaders.

 

[Walker Colt]

A leader like Albert Pike and his KGC works are hard to find just like Jesse James, Frank James and their involvement with the KGC, hard to find but there are hints of possibilities such as this link? knights-of-the-golden-circle-blogspot.com/2011/12/albert-pike-freesmasonary. It has some of your 32rd degree masons getting their ranks from Albert Pike. Would not that make him leader of the KGC or one of the leaders.

That blog post makes a lot of claims but doesn’t source any of them. The KGC was a masonic front organization? Really? Just from my Texas Grand Lodge research most of the known members of the KGC do not show up in the Grand Lodge returns. P. T. Beauregard was initiated as a knight? What’s the source for that?
Blog says “AfterLincoln unexpectedly ordered a national mobilization to crush the rebellion, the Knights of the Golden Circle engaged in paramilitary and espionage operations in the North, along with parallel and successor groups under different names — none, however, publicly carried its proper name: Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry”
The Scottish Rite is the KGC? I have no doubt that some members of the KGC were also members of the Scottish Rite but that is a heck of a jump to claim that they are the same organization.

Blog says “All in all, eleven southern states seceded from the Union, yet the Confederate flag had 13 stars, a sacred Masonic number, signaling to those who understood that the secession of the Southern states was motivated by the Knights Templar’s Southern Jurisdiction of Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.”

Thirteen states seceded not just eleven. Secession Acts of the Thirteen Confederate States
The Confederate Congress passed an act to admit Missouri into the Confederate States on Nov 28[SUP], [/SUP]1861 which made it the 12th state and on Dec 10, 1861 they admitted Kentucky as the 13th state.
If people are going to make claims like these about the KGC then they need to source them out. That’s the problem I have with the “conspiracy theory” side of KGC research is that they just make claims and never back them up.

As for my original post there is no definitive proof Pike was a member. Not yet, but I'm hoping to find it.

 

[franklin]

That blog post makes a lot of claims but doesn’t source any of them. The KGC was a masonic front organization? Really? Just from my Texas Grand Lodge research most of the known members of the KGC do not show up in the Grand Lodge returns. P. T. Beauregard was initiated as a knight? What’s the source for that?
Blog says “AfterLincoln unexpectedly ordered a national mobilization to crush the rebellion, the Knights of the Golden Circle engaged in paramilitary and espionage operations in the North, along with parallel and successor groups under different names — none, however, publicly carried its proper name: Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry”
The Scottish Rite is the KGC? I have no doubt that some members of the KGC were also members of the Scottish Rite but that is a heck of a jump to claim that they are the same organization.

Blog says “All in all, eleven southern states seceded from the Union, yet the Confederate flag had 13 stars, a sacred Masonic number, signaling to those who understood that the secession of the Southern states was motivated by the Knights Templar’s Southern Jurisdiction of Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.”

Thirteen states seceded not just eleven. Secession Acts of the Thirteen Confederate States
The Confederate Congress passed an act to admit Missouri into the Confederate States on Nov 28[SUP], [/SUP]1861 which made it the 12th state and on Dec 10, 1861 they admitted Kentucky as the 13th state.
If people are going to make claims like these about the KGC then they need to source them out. That’s the problem I have with the “conspiracy theory” side of KGC research is that they just make claims and never back them up.

As for my original post there is no definitive proof Pike was a member. Not yet, but I'm hoping to find it.

You are correct. I have seen a lot of rehashing over and over from one story to the other but no documentation to back it up. If those KGC records were sealed until 1916, where are the records now. Where is all of Bickley's letters and records, or Albert Pike or any member of the KGC. I have not been able to find anything other than where people infiltrated the KGC and wrote stories about them. But, then again no documents or sources to back up their claims. We know the KGC existed but were is any of their records?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Don't think that the KGC would leave behind "Records"... ONLY the Feds & MAJOR Universities (Scholars) would have such; I like University of Texas "on-line" for some stuff (sorta 2nd/3rd hand info). HA! What does a KGC "pin" look like...?

 

[Walker Colt]

You are correct. I have seen a lot of rehashing over and over from one story to the other but no documentation to back it up. If those KGC records were sealed until 1916, where are the records now. Where is all of Bickley's letters and records, or Albert Pike or any member of the KGC. I have not been able to find anything other than where people infiltrated the KGC and wrote stories about them. But, then again no documents or sources to back up their claims. We know the KGC existed but were is any of their records?

The only Bickley records that I've seen are held in the Bickley Papers at NARA. We also have newspaper articles that he wrote. Most of the KGC communications was done through newspapers. We know who the leadership were and some other members, we know where some castles were located and in some cases who the captain was. But most of what we know about them is through Bickley's writings and newspapers and the exposés. The claim that they ended in 1916 is undocumented as well. Bickley released members from their obligations during the war and he said they would hold a meeting in I believe 1870 but he died before that. Any information after that about the KGC carrying on after the war as an organization is undocumented. There were a few castles that carried on after the war but no one knows for how long.

 

[senior deacon]

Walker Colt As you may know I live in Harrison County Texas. We are famous for many things here. First Railroad in Texas, the Birthplace of Boogie Woogie music. One of the other things we were known for was Marshall was the center for the early cotton production in Texas. This was the very early big money boom
In the area. Money will draw in many different types of people. Some good others unscrupulous. The money attracting Bickley. The States rights, cheap labor, big profit of king cotton went hand in hand with the politics and philosophy of Bickley's KGC. He needed the money and the locals like Greer, Starr, Scott, Youree and a few more early families could well supply a good amount to help him out with his early year filibustering plans in to Mexico.

In my research into the local history of the KGC it seems that in 1858-59 when Bickley spent 6 months in and around Marshall it turns out that both he and General Greer would give interviews to the local newspapers to get out more of there views. It was the Facebook of there day. The interviews given to the Marshall Flag and the Marshall Democrat were sent all over Texas and Louisiana in dispatches to be printed in other papers. Remember Marshall was important because it was a cotton production center and had one of the first telegraphy into northeast Texas. Now the only documents that I have about the KGC is zero. But the Flag and Democrat were full of stories of brilliant speeches that Bickley and Greer gave and the opinion that they held. Who were the other members of the castle? We can speculate but don't know for sure.

Walker Colt has done a good job in putting together a list of most likely and for sure on his Facebook page. One of the only Facebook pages that I visit. If you haven't been to his virtual graveyard please take time and do so.

This is one of the problems in linking Pike and others to the KGC. They did a good job of hiding themselves in plain sight. A few of the big bugs and social elites are named the rest is just a wag at best. One of the best ways to figure out who was who was to see who was named in the local papers when it came to throwing out the carpet baggers out of town. These men were members of KGC and the depending where you were the committee of public safety, or the Democratic union and several other public groups that defended the old southern way of life and preserving the white power base. The castles were no doubt active after the the war another the time of reconstruction. Those at the very top went from KGC to O.A.K. to Robber Barons,to giants and titans of industry to the crony capitalists of Today.

Ain't it funny how Time slips away.

Senior Deacon

 

[elh]

Senior Deacon, very good post about Texas. I am with you as far as knowing for sure about Albert Pike. I have read some of his Morals and Dogma, AND, if
for no other reason than the use of numbers in those papers, I believe he was KGC through and through.
Merry Christmas and happy new year - Holidays is no word in my vocabulary. Lets keep it '' anti politically correct ''.