And yet another wild cache find...

[MiddenMonster]

Awesome find, but this one apparently doesn't turn out like it should. This quote comes to mind:

"It's actually a story of how to do things right," he said. "The metal detectorist was licensed. He had permission to look for finds like that. He immediately called the heritage officers."

That's right, kids. Leave these things to the experts. Did licensed boy get to keep the treasure? Nooooooope:

"These coins and this hoard [are] now part of our cultural heritage. And I think that's a very good outcome of this story."

And I think the outcome of the story sucks. Here's the link to the article, which has some cool pics and the video story that goes along with it:

Mysterious find beneath field leads man to massive treasure hidden for centuries

 

[cudamark]

The government or museum should at least give the detectorist and land owner the value of the hoard. That's what England does. Fair to everyone and no incentive to keep quiet or sell on the black market.

 

[newnan man]

Put it in a bag, put the bag in the truck, leave.

 

[MiddenMonster]

The government or museum should at least give the detectorist and land owner the value of the hoard. That's what England does. Fair to everyone and no incentive to keep quiet or sell on the black market.

That would solve part of the problem. But why does treasure found on private property belong to the government in the first place? If the treasure originally belonged to some government that can be connected to the modern government, fine. A government can reclaim what was once theirs, but even then there should be a finder's fee involved--so there is no incentive to keep quiet or sell on the black market. But what's wrong with a system where treasure is found on private property, those involved make a claim to what was found, rightful owners/heirs have a reasonable time to respond, then it goes to the finders and property owners if there is no valid claim. Nothing in that process means that the treasure won't end up in a museum on exhibit now and then, or that a very rich person would buy the entire cache and permanently house it at a museum. One thing I can almost guarantee is that Rural Joe and his cousin aren't going to be keeping millions of dollars worth of found treasure in their houses. They're going to sell it, pay the taxes and have an improved life while the treasure is probably put on a traveling exhibit by the new owner who is more into the prestige than the value of the treasure.

 

[cudamark]

In some countries you are a subject, not a citizen. Private property means something different in this country than most others.

 

[robertk]

In some countries you are a subject, not a citizen. Private property means something different in this country than most others.

At least in theory.

 

[newnan man]

I have private property free and clear. If I don't pay taxes on it the State will take it from me. That's not really ownership. If I found something on my land I would never tell anyone especially the government.

 

[ToddsPoint]

I have private property free and clear. If I don't pay taxes on it the State will take it from me. That's not really ownership. If I found something on my land I would never tell anyone especially the government.

 

[MiddenMonster]

If I found something on my land I would never tell anyone especially the government.

I sympathize with the thought. But in this day and age, with machine learning and AI out there they can nail you for spending too much money based on your tax filings, and they can nail you for spending too little based on your tax filings. So let's say you find $10 million dollars of something on your land. How do you get it from one side of the ledger to the other so you can enjoy it without spending the rest of your life looking over your shoulder?

 

[newnan man]

I sympathize with the thought. But in this day and age, with machine learning and AI out there they can nail you for spending too much money based on your tax filings, and they can nail you for spending too little based on your tax filings. So let's say you find $10 million dollars of something on your land. How do you get it from one side of the ledger to the other so you can enjoy it without spending the rest of your life looking over your shoulder?

I'll figured something out if it's just leaving it to the kids. I'd never tell anyone.

 

[jewelerguy]

I read another article on this particular find and it stated that the finder and land owner would receive compensation equal to the value of the find. I don't know why this article doesn't mention that.

 

[MiddenMonster]

I'll figured something out if it's just leaving it to the kids. I'd never tell anyone.

I like the idea of never telling anyone, but I've always felt that a big part of finding a treasure is actually enjoying the treasure. If I found a $10 million cache and all I could do was look at it in solitude I don't think I would be enjoying it much. Leaving it to your kids? Nice thought, but isn't that just dumping the whole situation in their laps? They might get crapped on with the estate tax and treasure trove tax. Let's face it, technology be jammin' a brother up these days. Sad as it sounds, I think the best path is to hire a good lawyer to do the grit work before your name and description of the treasure is ever given to anyone in authority.

Chances are that if you find gold bars they are going to be connected to government one way or the other, and the best you will get is a finders fee. If you find jewelry, you will have to wait out a long robbery/theft investigation. Same for cash with serial numbers. Finding an artifact opens another can of worms, so the best cache find you could make to have the easiest time legally converting it into your bank account would be gold coins or loose gemstones that can't really be traced. The second best cache you could find would be that 1969 Dodge Charger Super Bee, with the 440 mag and six pack, owned by a little old lady whose son bought it right before he went to Vietnam and didn't come back. The best 7 MPG you'll ever get.

I read another article on this particular find and it stated that the finder and land owner would receive compensation equal to the value of the find. I don't know why this article doesn't mention that.

Post the link to the article. A lot of European countries give the finders something, but it still comes down to who is determining what the value of the treasure is. In the United States that value is determined by a privately owned auction house that takes a 30% rake, not a bureaucrat sitting in an air conditioned office above the employees without air conditioning. But as @cudamark pointed out, it comes down to whether someone is more of a subject or citizen.

 

[cudamark]

I would just sell an item at a time for cash. That assuming it's not just one $10 million dollar item. That might be a bit tough to move, but, a cache of coins wouldn't be hard to do. Registered items like gold bars or new consecutive bills would be tough though. Jewelry would be easy too, unless the stone(s) were laser etched and registered.

 

[BennyV]

Cool find. I like that they found the pot it was in also.

 

[BennyV]

They get nothing.

 

[jewelerguy]

Post the link to the article. A lot of European countries give the finders something, but it still comes down to who is determining what the value of the treasure is. In the United States that value is determined by a privately owned auction house that takes a 30% rake, not a bureaucrat sitting in an air conditioned office above the employees without air conditioning. But as @cudamark pointed out, it comes down to whether someone is more of a subject or citizen.

I don't have the link because I read it a few days before a link about it was posted here and didn't think twice about it.

 

[MiddenMonster]

I would just sell an item at a time for cash.

That's clearly what you would have to do. The question then becomes how would you do it? If the cache was a $10 million cache of 100 coins, you've got a tough road ahead. You would either have to anonymously sell the coins at $10,000 each without getting caught, or take less for each coin like someone trying to fence a hot diamond. Let's say the cache is 200 coins, so you can sell them for $5,000 each without bells ringing. How often do you sell a coin, and what do you do with the money once it's sold? It's not like you will ever be able to buy a house or a car, or anything that has a title or official paperwork attached to it. You also won't be able to take exotic vacations or eat out at expensive food joints to eat up that money.

Remember, you have AI and machine learning acting as the guardrails on either side of you. Spend too much for your zip code and career path, you get pegged. Spend too little, you get pegged. There's probably a fudge factor of just a few percent either side of the line that flags you when it is passed. It used to be that you could go to Vegas and buy a few thousand dollars of chips, play for an hour an cache out tens of thousands and even get a receipt. Those days are long gone. It also used to be that you could invest in a bar or some other cash business that let you launder that money into daylight fairly easy. Those days are long gone, as well. Casinos not only have cameras on everything, they also track all the people, often by their names. If the IRS comes asking about you the casino will roll over on you in a second. The cash business also has digital receipts these days, records of unemployment taxes paid into the account, and both are automatically tallied by a friendly AI in real time. Every bar around you took in about $8K during the Super Bowl, but you took in $15K? Busted! Your monthly expenses for food, clothing, bills and cigars drop 40% over the last 6 months? Busted!

Washing that money is virtually impossible these days when everyone is all up in your grill and able to monitor all your activities in real time. And if a Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) becomes a reality, it's back to barter for anything they deem sketchy, found treasure or not. A CBDC can be devalued if you don't spend at the rate they want you to. It can be turned off or taken from you at the press of a button. It can also be apportioned to get you to spend it on what they want, i.e. less fuel or meat, more healthy or "sustainable" products. So in a worst case scenario, that coin cache becomes a black market currency, forever being traded for black market items, but again at pennies on the dollar. You could furnish your house or always have the top of the line AV setup with a cache of gold coins, but you won't be able to enjoy them the way you really want to.

 

[BennyV]

That's clearly what you would have to do. The question then becomes how would you do it? If the cache was a $10 million cache of 100 coins, you've got a tough road ahead. You would either have to anonymously sell the coins at $10,000 each without getting caught, or take less for each coin like someone trying to fence a hot diamond. Let's say the cache is 200 coins, so you can sell them for $5,000 each without bells ringing. How often do you sell a coin, and what do you do with the money once it's sold? It's not like you will ever be able to buy a house or a car, or anything that has a title or official paperwork attached to it. You also won't be able to take exotic vacations or eat out at expensive food joints to eat up that money.

Remember, you have AI and machine learning acting as the guardrails on either side of you. Spend too much for your zip code and career path, you get pegged. Spend too little, you get pegged. There's probably a fudge factor of just a few percent either side of the line that flags you when it is passed. It used to be that you could go to Vegas and buy a few thousand dollars of chips, play for an hour an cache out tens of thousands and even get a receipt. Those days are long gone. It also used to be that you could invest in a bar or some other cash business that let you launder that money into daylight fairly easy. Those days are long gone, as well. Casinos not only have cameras on everything, they also track all the people, often by their names. If the IRS comes asking about you the casino will roll over on you in a second. The cash business also has digital receipts these days, records of unemployment taxes paid into the account, and both are automatically tallied by a friendly AI in real time. Every bar around you took in about $8K during the Super Bowl, but you took in $15K? Busted! Your monthly expenses for food, clothing, bills and cigars drop 40% over the last 6 months? Busted!

Washing that money is virtually impossible these days when everyone is all up in your grill and able to monitor all your activities in real time. And if a Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) becomes a reality, it's back to barter for anything they deem sketchy, found treasure or not. A CBDC can be devalued if you don't spend at the rate they want you to. It can be turned off or taken from you at the press of a button. It can also be apportioned to get you to spend it on what they want, i.e. less fuel or meat, more healthy or "sustainable" products. So in a worst case scenario, that coin cache becomes a black market currency, forever being traded for black market items, but again at pennies on the dollar. You could furnish your house or always have the top of the line AV setup with a cache of gold coins, but you won't be able to enjoy them the way you really want to.

To sum it up.

You find it. Declare it. Hope you get something. Or you don’t and take your chances and probably lose it/get jail time.

 

[ToddsPoint]

The saddle ridge hoard was found near SF CA. Nearly 1500 double eagles. The finders contacted coin dealer Don Kagan. He sent the coins to PCGS for grading, then immediately put them up for sale on Amazon. They sold out quickly. The finders payed the 38% tax to the government and it was finished before anyone could think about making a claim or tying them up in court. The Great Kentucky hoard was sold quickly in similar fashion by dealer Jeff Garrett.

 

[cudamark]

I don't think it's quite 1984 yet. Most things you buy (clothes, booze, tickets, gasoline, food, etc.) with cash don't have any record that can be traced. Cash at a restaurant? They won't even know my name. A good relationship with a local coin shop would help moving expensive coins.