Apache of the Superstitions

[ahstacy]

I have not been able to find much on the Apache ways or culture in the Superstitions, but the norm. Are there any secrets of theirs or people of theirs to contact or is everything always SHHHH!

 

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[ahstacy]

It seems to me that the natives of the area would have the most knowledge of the history and terrain. It was there back yard.

 

[somehiker]

ahstacy:

Welcome to T-Net.
There was an interesting exchange of information and (clash of) beliefs within this topic on the DUSA forum awhile back.

DesertUSA.com/mb3 • View topic - Edward S. Curtis books and stories

You might enjoy it.

Regards:SH.

 

[ahstacy]

thanks!! somehiker!!!!

 

[ahstacy]

it was very informational thanks! sy not very good at this, computers and all!!! would like to meet spirit one day!! i have done a lot of genealogy with my family and doing research. herd about the ldm and peralta stones, caught my interest, wanting to debunk and being skeptical found myself enthralled and ran across some things that changed my mind. things that some haven't thought about or looked at in all that i've read! i am a opened minded person and have looked at all sides of the stories old and new and think people haven't listened to each other because of there own theories! the big picture i believe it to be true! you are a total stranger, but to solve a mystery everyone has to work together! i want to go to La Barge Canyon and Squaw Canyon! alot has been missed there! Be your weird friend who knows nothing! we all have knowledge but keep quiet!

 

[cactusjumper]

I have not been able to find much on the Apache ways or culture in the Superstitions, but the norm. Are there any secrets of theirs or people of theirs to contact or is everything always SHHHH!

ahstacy,

Welcome to TNet.

As to who you can contact, that depends on which Apache you think developed a culture in the range. There was only one band who had a presence in the mountains......the Tonto Apache. They lived in the northeast part of the Supe's.
The rest was taken up by the Yavapai, and the two, over time, blurred the line somewhat.

If there are any Apache who have any secrets about the Superstitions, which I doubt, you will need one who is willing to talk. I believe that will be the proverbial needle in the haystack.

There are many, many books that deal with their history and the Apache life-way. Most are written by white men, but some are the work of the Apache.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Terry Soloman]

The White Mountain and San Carlos Apache tribes San Carlos Apache Indians Fact Sheet were familiar with the Superstitions as a stronghold and escape route into Mexico. Old Calvary accounts at the ASU library archives talk about military expeditions into the Superstitions with Yavapai and Apache scouts looking for renegade raiders and outlaws. The Sharlot Hall Museum in Prescott also has some photos and manuscripts pertaining to the Apaches in the Superstition Mountains. Welcome To Sharlot Hall Museum - sharlot.org

 

[Azhiker]

ahstacy,

Somehiker gave a great link to a thread over at DesertUSA website.

There was another thread at the same website title: Native Americans in the Superstition Mountains. DesertUSA.com/mb3 • View topic - Native Americans in the Superstition Mts.

This thread also gave some great information on the Apache in the Superstition, what they were doing and where. Spirit gave some good insight into the Apache perspective. I thought the information was fantastic.

 

[somehiker]

Lots more in this one as well:

DesertUSA.com/mb3 • View topic - Native American history within the Superstitions discussion

Regards:Somehiker

 

[cactusjumper]

ahstacy,

This was your original question:

"I have not been able to find much on the Apache ways or culture in the Superstitions, but the norm. Are there any secrets of theirs or people of theirs to contact or is everything always SHHHH".

The Tonto Apache did not really develop a "way" or "culture" in the Superstitions. For the most part, they maintained small groups made up of family members. They did not stay long in one place, moving with the seasonal growth of food plants and the movement of the game. Each tribe had a specific area, which they claimed, and made it known where the boundaries were. Those boundaries were necessary because there was only enough food supplies for one clan.

There are books available on the Tonto and Yavapai people. In truth, I believe, they will be your best source in trying to gather information on the "historic" culture of the time. Pre-historic, is another subject altogether.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ahstacy]

Thank you all very much any other ideas pop up will be appriciated!! i'm always busy, so will try to keep up best I can...

 

[cactusjumper]

ahstacy,

How are you doing in your research into the Dilzhe'eh Apache? There are some good books about them, but they are not as romanticized as some of the other Apache. If you're interested, I will provide the names of some of the better works.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

The only "Apache presence" that can be historically factual, would be the Tonto Apache. There is one person who has been trying to establish a (fictional) association between the Superstition Mountains and the Apache, and he is said to be writing a book.

The Tonto were in the far eastern section, and primarily above the Salt River. Many of the army accounts claiming Apache in the Superstitions are actually about the Yavapai, who did use the range for generations.

There are often people who come on the various Internet sites and try to create a background belief about Apache people having a close "historical" connection to the Supe's. I believe it is actually only one person doing groundwork for his book. He does know a great deal about the Apache, but I think it's all about a future book.

While I don't think it's wrong to do a fictional account, it's shameful to continue the long tradition of false stories about the Apache, as well as other tribes, and present it as history.

If you care about the truthful history of Native Americans, you should look closely at the "facts" written by those who claim to be, in this case, Apache.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

ahstacy
While it is not specific to the Superstitions "The People Called APACHE" (T. Mails) 0-7924-5838-9 ISBN is an amazing look at the life of the Apache. Also, there absolutely was a connection between the Superstitions and the Apache. Just spend some time reading through the local period newspapers as there are many reports of the Apache gathering/meeting/heading towards - the Superstitions. But if possible, you should follow cactusjumpers advice and go to the source, which will be no easy task.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

"The People Called APACHE" is a great source book. While Mails mentions the Tonto Apache a number of times, I don't recall that he mentions the Superstition mountains. In a book that covers 447 pages, it seems that little was left out.

"Surviving Conquest" by Bratz is pretty informative, as well as "Rim Country Exodus" by Herman. Even though neither book is about the Tonto Apache, they will give you a good idea as to the lifestyle of the Apache in that era and place. If you end up getting hooked on that topic, count on lots of nights burning the midnight oil, and a decided loss of weight in your wallet.

When you are reading through those old newspapers, keep in mind that many reports concerning the Apache, were actually about the Yavapai. Few people could distinguish between the two tribes.......including the U.S. Army.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

I somehow lean more towards the report of an eye wittness, that to that of the assumtion of someone who was not there.

If the white man was there, out of his culture, and boundaries, why couldn't and Apache be there when they had been there longer than the white man? Native Indians lived off the land, they didn't, and couldn't stay in a constricted area. They had to gather food, and hunt. The Superstitions was part of the Apaches hunting grounds. They also gathered food, and medicine there that was in season, but it consisted of a vast variety, so there was always something in season.

The U.S. Army dealed with Native Indians, and even had some working with them. When they claimed Geronimo to be an Apache, guess what, they got it right. So why assume their other eye witness reports were in errror?

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Homar,

The Apache history is replete with stories of depredations that they were credited with, and other tribes were responsible for.

There is no way that any of us can vouch for who's story is true, and who's are false. The best we can do, is to read the words of people long dead, who got their information from the people who were there.

After you read the different accounts, both sides, you then need to set your personal biases aside and make your own decisions as to where the truth lies. I believe that is what most writers have done. I feel that is less true of many of the well known authors who were closest to the events, or participated in them.

Anyone who thinks they can visit a reservation, ask for a visit with the head man, and come away with some great knowledge, is only kidding themselves. To get close to that, you would need a well trusted go-between for your introduction......and that's a long shot in itself.

I think ashtacy already knows that. Some good advice has been given, but I don't think he really needs it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

Joe,

I have no personal biases on this discussion. I am not the one discounting all the eye witness reports. I only present my opinion that comes from simple reasoning.

You stated that the Apache history is replete with stories of depredations that they were credited with, and other tribes were responsible for.

In order for this to be true, the Apache had to be there.

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Homar,

I guess I'm just not too confident in CYA government accusations. On the other hand, there were Apache in Arizona at that time..........
As for newspaper reports, you have to remember that many newspapers were advocating genocide as the only answer to the "Apache" problem or, at the least, removal to islands off the California coast.

[A major problem faced by Arizona's military was that they had too few soldiers for too vast an area of land. Most chronicles of the time regarded Apaches as the biggest menace, but Yuman-speaking Yavapais, who were often identified as Apache Mohaves or Apache Yumas, killed and mutilated settlers just as often. Divided into four subtribes, the Tolkapaya, or Western Yavapais, the Yavepe and the Wipukpaya or Northeastern Yavapais and the Kewevkapaya or Southeastern Yavapais, the Yavapais ranged from the Colorado River to the Tonto Basin. Like the Apaches, they were mobile and extremely independent, their only political authorities being war chiefs and advisory chiefs selected by local groups. This made it extremely difficult for the United States Army to run down or negotiate with more than one Yavapai group at a time. Troops had to pursue the Yavapais across rough desert terrain. Many of the soldiers deserted, fleeing places like Camp Grant, a sun-scorched collection of adobe buildings.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Grant_massacre

Hope you had a great Christmas and that you're looking forward to the new year

Take care,

Joe.

 

[Azhiker]

Homar,

It seems to me the confusion comes from people (mostly white people) trying to seperate the two tribes. The Apache and the Kewevkapaya were not so seperate according to the Apache themselves. this is taken from a native American who used the forum name (spirit) on another forum explaining the origin of the San Carlos Apache people. If you read it carefully you will get the two tribes were together from the beginning and still are together today. If you follow what he apered to be saying, when you talk about the Apache you are talking about the Kewevkapaya, and when you talk about the Kewevkapaya you are talking about the Apache. It is when you try and seperate the two you get an indian version of who and where they were and a very different white verion of who and where they were. That is my take on the matter anyway.

Azhiker

here is what spirit wrote:
The Yavapai and Nde Apache were together from our earliest memory. This is what I believe, as do the San Carlos Apache people.

When the Salado people began leaving the area that is now east central Arizona, another group of people began moving in, these were the Pai, (Yavapai) they called themselves the Kewevkapaya (people of the east). During the time the Salado were leaving and the Pai were arriving, another group of people began appearing from the north. These were the Nnee, the Nde, (Apache) Athabascan speaking people. From where they came we do not know for certain.

The Apache intermarried with the Salado who stayed behind and also with the Kewevkapaya Yavapai.

The Kewevkapaya people settled the southern and western slopes of the Pinal mountains, the Dripping Springs and Superstition mountains, the Four Peaks and Mazatzal mountains also. The San Carlos Apache ancestors are a combination of the Salado, the Kewevkapaya and the Nde Apache people who came from the north.

One group of the Nde Apache came into and setteled in an area known as Tiis Ebah (later called the wheatfields) on the slopes of the Pinal mountains. Tiis Ebah means (cottonwood trees there) the people became known as the Tiis Ebah Nnee (cottonwood tree people) or the Pinal Apache. These people are my ancestors.

The Kewevkapaya also lived at Tiis Ebah at the same time. The Kewevkapaya and the Nde Apache were friends, intermarried, shared culture, fought battles together, raided together and defended their homeland together. Today, the majority of the San Carlos people are Pinal Apache from the Tiis Ebah clans.

A second group of the Nde people settled in the Tonto Basin, Mazatzal mountains, Salt and Verde river areas. They lived there with the Kewevkapaya. They were the Dilzhee e people (Tonto Apache) some of their leaders were Kewevkapaya Yavapai.

A third group settled in the Arivap area, they were the Tsee Zhinnee (people of the dark rocks) or Arivaipa Apache. These peoples origin may have partially been from some of the Tiis Ebah Nnee, Pinal Apaches.

A fourth group of the Nde Apache settled in the Apache Peaks area north of Globe. These people were the Bichi Lehe Nnee (fled to the mountains people) or Apache Peaks Apache.

Finally a fifth group of the Nde settled at Tiis Zhaazhe Bikoh (small cottonwood canyon) along the San Carlos River. These people became known as the San Carlos Apache.

The San Carlos people today are a diverse group from several different areas and origins, including a common origin with the Kewevkapaya Yavapai. Some Kewevkapaya still live at San Carlos today.

Other Apache who also came from the north but are not associated with the San Carlos Apache are the,

Dzil t'adn, the Cibecue Apache.

Laan Baaha, the Western White mountain Apache.

Dzil Ghaa a, the Eastern White mountain Apache. Some of the Eastern White mountain Apache were also the Dzil Nchaa si an (Mt. Graham Apache).

The, Tse Noltl izhn, Mazatzal Apache

The, Dzil Dlaazhe (Mt. Turnbull Apache) also a combination of the Nde and Yavapai peoples.

And the Chiricahua Apache who were the most infamous Apache of San Carlos reservation and the surrounding area, but are not associated with the San Carlos people or reservation today.

They are the ,

Chokonen, also called Cho-kune, Tsoka-ne-nde people.

The Chihenne, also called the Tcihene, Tcihende, Cha-ha.

The Bedonkohe, known as the Aiaha, a small subgroup of the Chiricahua.

And the Nednhi also called the Nde-Ndai, Nde-nda-i.

Much of the confusion of the Apache comes because the white man called us and labeled us one thing, while we called ourselves something completely different. This is what I believe.