The dutchman and horses

[cuzimloony]

I am reading Lost El Dorado of Jacob Waltz, by Jack San Felice currently, and there is something I need cleared up, a mental block so-to-speak. I live in the area of the dutchman legend. In and around Apache Junction and parts of Mesa, there are a lot of places, restaurants, diners, car lots, etc that use the image of the dutchman. None of them show him with a horse. He is always walking and pulling a burro behind him. The town seal of Apache Junction and even the Superstition Mountain Museum all show him walking.
So here is the question: Does there need to be, or is there, evidence that he rode a horse into the Sups? Should I just assume he did? Or is this a realistic question worth thinking about? Did he ride a horse to the "front range" of the sups and then walk from there? Did he hitch a ride? Im not sure which is the more reasonable option. At one point in the book, there is a statement to the effect of, Im paraphrasing here, "Jesse Feldman and I believe that it is possible to get from Adamsville (33 degrees north, btw...) to the northern reaches of the Superstitions in three days," or something to that affect. I find that hard to believe if he is walking with a burro, which is the only way I've ever seen him portrayed. Also...I'm finding it hard to doubt Jesse Feldman and Jack San Felice so.... there must be something I'm looking at wrong and hoping someone here can provide a bit more context for me. Thanks!

 

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[axer]

I am reading Lost El Dorado of Jacob Waltz, by Jack San Felice currently, and there is something I need cleared up, a mental block so-to-speak. I live in the area of the dutchman legend. In and around Apache Junction and parts of Mesa, there are a lot of places, restaurants, diners, car lots, etc that use the image of the dutchman. None of them show him with a horse. He is always walking and pulling a burro behind him. The town seal of Apache Junction and even the Superstition Mountain Museum all show him walking.
So here is the question: Does there need to be, or is there, evidence that he rode a horse into the Sups? Should I just assume he did? Or is this a realistic question worth thinking about? Did he ride a horse to the "front range" of the sups and then walk from there? Did he hitch a ride? Im not sure which is the more reasonable option. At one point in the book, there is a statement to the effect of, Im paraphrasing here, "Jesse Feldman and I believe that it is possible to get from Adamsville to the northern reaches of the Superstitions in three days," or something to that affect. I find that hard to believe if he is walking with a burro, which is the only way I've ever seen him portrayed. Also...I'm finding it hard to doubt Jesse Feldman and Jack San Felice so.... there must be something I'm looking at wrong and hoping someone here can provide a bit more context for me. Thanks!

According to every supposed eye witness account I've read, Jacob Waltz always rode a large black mule.

 

[cuzimloony]

According to every supposed eye witness account I've read, Jacob Waltz always rode a large black mule.

Did the mule carry him and his gear? I've never rode a mule.... a horse yes, a mule no, and on the horse you could really only bring a bed roll and may a day's worth of food and water, just a guess....Ive never been camping with a horse. Is a mule capable of carrying a fully grown man, his bed roll if he had one, and 3 or 4 days worth of water and food? I have no idea....... The mules/donkeys in my neighborhood look like they can barely carry a high school kid.

 

[axer]

Did the mule carry him and his gear? I've never rode a mule.... a horse yes, a mule no, and on the horse you could really only bring a bed roll and may a day's worth of food and water, just a guess....Ive never been camping with a horse. Is a mule capable of carrying a fully grown man, his bed roll if he had one, and 3 or 4 days worth of water and food? I have no idea....... The mules/donkeys in my neighborhood look like they can barely carry a high school kid.

A big mule or horse can pull it's own weight, 900 lbs, and remember there was a lot more water in the wilderness area back then between the more springs before the big earthquake in 1887 and more rainfall and many catch basins and tanks that are everywhere out there. He would have had his firearm, canteens, food for the animals, shovel and pick, bedroll, mess kit, at least 150 pounds probably closer to 200. When he first mined the quartz location he and his partner had at least 2 burros they brought 300 lbs of ore to Florence to be shipped to CA to be refined and sold. Of course I'm just guessing from what little I've read. Except for the threat of death from various humans he had it easier than we do now in the wilderness area.

 

[EDN]

I don't know if the dutchman rode his mules. However, I do know people did back in his day. Here is a picture of the Crab tree boys at this location. One of the mules has a saddle and the other has a pack saddle. When it comes to riding in rough terrain, I know ridding a mule is better than riding a horse. I have a brother-in-law that guides people on hunts. He rides a mule to get in the deep back country.

Cabin Crab Tree Boy's 33.613248°, -111.336491°

 

[EDN]

Here is a picture of all that's left of the cabin. Notice the rock about 3/4 way up is the same in the old picture and the new picture.

 

[cuzimloony]

I don't know if the dutchman rode his mules. However, I do know people did back in his day. Here is a picture of the Crab tree boys at this location. One of the mules has a saddle and the other has a pack saddle. When it comes to riding in rough terrain, I know ridding a mule is better than riding a horse. I have a brother-in-law that guides people on hunts. He rides a mule to get in the deep back country.

Cabin Crab Tree Boy's 33.613248°, -111.336491°

I dont doubt mules can carry heavy weight. Those pictures were great too. Thank you. Im more wondering how much can you pack it down, how far is it (and an old man) going in a day, etc..
Im just working through the logistics of the story to see if they line up. Adamsville to the upper Sups is quite a haul for 3 days....maybe? Dont know. Do mules run? Im trying to figure out how likely that trip was.

 

[cuzimloony]

I don't know if the dutchman rode his mules. However, I do know people did back in his day. Here is a picture of the Crab tree boys at this location. One of the mules has a saddle and the other has a pack saddle. When it comes to riding in rough terrain, I know ridding a mule is better than riding a horse. I have a brother-in-law that guides people on hunts. He rides a mule to get in the deep back country.

Cabin Crab Tree Boy's 33.613248°, -111.336491°

That cabin picture is fantastic. It's so clear!

 

[SPARTANOC]

I dont doubt mules can carry heavy weight. Those pictures were great too. Thank you. Im more wondering how much can you pack it down, how far is it (and an old man) going in a day, etc..
Im just working through the logistics of the story to see if they line up. Adamsville to the upper Sups is quite a haul for 3 days....maybe? Dont know. Do mules run? Im trying to figure out how likely that trip was.

From what I've picked up about Waltz - is that he walked more than he rode and a Mule itself can carry something like 150lbs or so of Ore packed, give or take a pound. I believe Waltz' equipment would have been simple compared to what we use today. Also Axer is correct, that the water supple today out there after the rains - is very different than it was back then. So, the need of carrying water in, wasn't so paramount like it is today. That being said - I didn't hear anything about Waltz walking/riding out there in the heat of the summer. I'm sure he did - but as we all know, that area in the summer will kill you, if one is not prepared. I would believe Waltz favored the Fall and Winter to conduct business back in there AND it is said - he spent a Winter covering things up on one of his last trips in there. So, to do all that work in the Summer just seems suicidal.

With a packed mule, Waltz (in my opinion) didn't walk that far as reported. I think this is one of the elements that have been misleading since the beginning.

-SpartanOC

 

[EDN]

All,
After researching how much a mule can carry, found the information below.

A mule can carry dead weight of up to 20% of its body weight, or approximately 90 kg (198 lb)1. A mule can carry about 30% of its body weight in live weight23. The median weight range for a mule is between about 370 and 460 kg (820 and 1,000 lb)1. However, the appropriate load for a mule depends on its size, age, and conditioning level3.

The link below explains a lot about the difference of horses vs. mules.
https://horseracingsense.com/mule-horse-which-best/

I was surprised to read Mules can walk about 15 per hour. This the top speed on level ground.

The walking speed for humans is 3 to 4 miles per hour.

The distance between Verde River near Fort McDowell an Agua Fria is about 15 to 20 miles. I read somewhere that Walts and Others traveled between these two places in one day.