Archive list of the Fondo Documental Enrique Otte

[Alexandre]

The Inventario del Fondo Documental Enrique Otte is a gold mine of information - if you are an archivist dealing with Spanish fleets, that is:


http://www.centrodeestudiosandaluces.es/datos/factoriaideas/ifo9_09.pdf

 

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[old man]

Welcome back Alexandre and thanks for the link.

 

[Mackaydon]

Massive amount of info; many thanks.
Don.....

 

[ScubaFinder]

Nice list! Obrigado

 

[cornelis 816]

Very nice information when you speak and read Spanish . I could post a lot of information on the VOC . Lots of shipwrecks and journals . Many of the wrecks had a very valuable cargo on board . But ..........why post this stuff ? Most of us could not read Dutch anyhow ! So I consider this a wasted motion on my side . Cornelius

 

[Alexandre]

Well, if you have information on the VOC Schoonhoven, lost in 1626, they waste some time posting it - I have found it.

Very nice information when you speak and read Spanish . I could post a lot of information on the VOC . Lots of shipwrecks and journals . Many of the wrecks had a very valuable cargo on board . But ..........why post this stuff ? Most of us could not read Dutch anyhow ! So I consider this a wasted motion on my side . Cornelius

 

[Oceanscience]

Vox Veritas is probably already there digging up good stuff.

 

[cornelis 816]

Alexandre . The VOC ship Schoonhoven built in Amsterdam in 1619 . Displacement 400 ton . On her third voyage to the Indies she was wrecked on the coast of Portugal on January 22nd 1626 . 198 men were captured and moved to Lissabon . Cornelius

 

[Alexandre]

Alexandre . The VOC ship Schoonhoven built in Amsterdam in 1619 . Displacement 400 ton . On her third voyage to the Indies she was wrecked on the coast of Portugal on January 22nd 1626 . 198 men were captured and moved to Lissabon . Cornelius

Almost there, Cornelius...

The Dutch East India Company (Verenigde Oost Indische Compagnie or VOC) jacht "Schoonhoven" was indeed built in Amsterdam in 1619.

With captain Simon Jansz, she made her first voyage to Asia, departing Texel on the 27th, December, 1620, and arriving at Negapatnam on the 14t, December, 1621. She then left Batavia in the 30th, March, 1632 and arrived at Texel on December the same year.

On our second voyage, she went under captain Dirk Eversz, departing Texel on the 20th, January, 1623, arriving at Surat on the 2nd October, same year. From Coromandel, she then returned to Europe on the 24th of August 1624, arriving on May, the 29th, 1625.

For her third voyage, she departed Texel, on the 20th, December, 1625, under the command of Kornelis Hartman. But, this time, she never made it to Asia: on the 23rd of January, 1626, she was lost off Grandola, Portugal.

Of her complement of 200, 174 were drowned. The 26 survivors were made prisioners by Agostinho Dias, the foreman of a party of lumbers to the Royal shipyards.

16 cannons, 11 anchors and 3 chests containing 30.000 silver coins were lost in the process.

 

[VOC]

Cornelius,

You can cut and paste most common languages into the on-line translators to read anything posted in a foreign language.

http://translate.google.com/#

or

http://uk.babelfish.yahoo.com/

 

[cornelis 816]

Alexandre . Do you have better information than we can get out of the Archives in the Hague ? I believe the letters from the ,, heren 17 ,, more than I believe the Portuguese archives . But .... whatever you think is fair ! Cornelius

 

[Alexandre]

Alexandre . Do you have better information than we can get out of the Archives in the Hague ? I believe the letters from the ,, heren 17 ,, more than I believe the Portuguese archives . But .... whatever you think is fair ! Cornelius

"The judges of the village of Santiago do Cacém convey to your Majesty that on the 23 of this month was grounded on the beach of this village a Dutch ship with Pirates, that with the force of the tide and the storm was soon in pieces … I certify that in my possession are a few books that the judges of this Village opened regarding the sinking of ship that went aground and broke near the lagoon of this said village and the inventory of goods which are found ... at the seaside, near the village are as follows: 3 quarters of butter, 1 small barrel with 3 almudes of butter, 1 barrel of oil, 1 small barrel of olive oil 1 wine cask, one more barrel of butter, 1 green and 1 white cover cloth, various canvas, 4 more butter barrels, 1 small cask of wine, 2 barrels of tar, 4 more casks of wine, 2 casks of wine, 1 more wine cask, 1 gallop, 2 chairs, iron plate, 1 ring, 1 sack, 6 lead bars, 6 iron arches, candles, and a few more things (...)"

Cornelius, I have the letters from the Judges of Santiago do Cacém, from the magistrate at Setubal, from the foreman that emprisioned the survivors and interrogated them with the help of a "tongue" and from the Portuguese Council at Lisbon - I am assuming that the locals would be better informed that the Heren 17 several thousand kilometers to the northeast..

I also have the wrecksite - and it was the Portuguese documentation that lead me to it.

One of these days I have to go there, the Hague, and dig the cargo manifest and the pax list of this ship.

 

[cornelis 816]

Alexandre . There was more money onboard . What happened to the the other chest of coins ? I think the guys that salvaged the Schoonhoven did keep some of the money . This happens all the time . Even in Florida . So nothing new . Exept that somebody did not speak the truth about what was salvaged , or what was realy on board . Which makes the Archives in The Hague more trustworthy . Cornelius

 

[cornelis 816]

As stated in the Archives in the Hague there there was for 131087 guilders on board . So that is why my question is , what happened to the rest of the coins ? Cornelius

 

[Alexandre]

Alexandre . There was more money onboard . What happened to the the other chest of coins ? I think the guys that salvaged the Schoonhoven did keep some of the money . This happens all the time . Even in Florida . So nothing new . Exept that somebody did not speak the truth about what was salvaged , or what was realy on board . Which makes the Archives in The Hague more trustworthy . Cornelius

Well, Cornelius, if there was more money aboard, then I would say that the Dutch being interrogated either did not knew the precise amount or lied about it - the Portuguese document clearly states "30.000 patacas em 3 caixões" (30.000 reales de a-ocho in 3 boxes).

I know for a fact that nothing came out of the hull - it was all jetsam and floatsam. So, it is still under all that sand.

Or, indeed, someone reporting the fact in that letter lied about the amount being carried... who knows? That's what's so mesmerizing about this whole affair, it reads like a cliffhanger novel.

 

[Alexandre]

As stated in the Archives in the Hague there there was for 131087 guilders on board . So that is why my question is , what happened to the rest of the coins ? Cornelius

The guilder reference is a bit confusing, Cornelius... werent guilders first struck some 60 years after this wreck event?

 

[cornelis 816]

Yes Alexandre the right word should be silver ,, Riders ,, so called because of the riding man in armor pictured on it . It was not sought after in Asia . The Spanish coins were of greater value . ( contained more silver ) . But some of the coins were in gold . The only currency axepted by the Chinese . Cornelius

 

[cornelis 816]

This is something you may have found if YOU salvaged the wreck. Cornelius

 

[Alexandre]

Ah, a Ducatoon! Yes, there might be some there. All of them archaeological artefacts.

But I sure hope I wont find one with a Rider - that would screw my chronology. You see, those with the Rider were only struck after 1659.

If I find anything, it would be something like these, struck since 1618 in Brabant:

 

[Alexandre]

Some of the coins were in gold . The only currency axepted by the Chinese . Cornelius

That is not correct. China exported gold and imported silver - they had no silver and that's what took the Portuguese into Japan.

As a matter of fact, the "silver hunger" that China always displayed enventually led into the Opium Wars - the HEIC, faced with no silver supplies, had to replace it by another commodity...

For a brief background on the Chinese-Japanese- Indian-Portuguese trade in the 16th century, check this:

http://www.upf.edu/mon/assig/xialmo/mat/villiers_2.pdf