As the story was written....."the source"....

[bigscoop]

.....now take a very close look at the ceded territory in Colorado during the Adam's Onis Treaty. Keep in mind the timeliness of the said deposits in relationship to the signing and ratification of that treaty. A curious and rather odd coincidence, perhaps?

Historic regions of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

And...?

 

[bigscoop]

And...?

No "and", just find it curious that there is very little detailed about this ceded section in Colorado. Why was it in dispute? Why was it ceded? Clearly it is a large track of land rather then just a disputed/negotiated border line. The location of this track of ceded land also roughly fits the description/distance offered in the pamphlet. So what do we know about this track of land that was ceded during the Adam's Onis Treaty? What was it's exact importance. etc.?

 

[ECS]

Adams-Onis Treaty was the beginning of the US's land grab of Florida,which they never paid for.
It is covered in the book:
"FINDING FLORIDA-The True History of the Sunshine State" by T D Allman c2013 Grove Press

 

[bigscoop]

Adams-Onis Treaty was the beginning of the US's land grab of Florida,which they never paid for.
It is covered in the book:
"FINDING FLORIDA-The True History of the Sunshine State" by T D Allman c2013 Grove Press

True, but the US also gained a defined border along/within the neutral zone and also that track of land in Colorado during that same treaty. (Actually the US took direct aim and "unofficial" action in Florida before the treaty.) So what, exactly, was this track of land in Colorado all about?

 

[tat2guy]

And...?

Reb, do you know the piece of land that Scoop is talking about? It's interesting!!! Look at a map showing it and read that part of the BP again. It has me interested to. What's better is the time period that it happens. Could be a funny coincidence or maybe not idk

HH Tat

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Reb, do you know the piece of land that Scoop is talking about? It's interesting!!! Look at a map showing it and read that part of the BP again. It has me interested to. What's better is the time period that it happens. Could be a funny coincidence or maybe not idk

HH Tat

Yes, y'all seem to be looking for the "source" in Colorado of "gold & silver", after Beale & companions set camp in Santa Fe "area". I did R & I on areas in Colorado north of Santa Fe (which was SPANISH in TJB's time); thought it was the ICE CAVES... NOPE! Ice Caves... in NM; Bandera Volcano @ www.icecaves.com

 

[bigscoop]

Yes, y'all seem to be looking for the "source" in Colorado of "gold & silver", after Beale & companions set camp in Santa Fe "area". I did R & I on areas in Colorado north of Santa Fe (which was SPANISH in TJB's time); thought it was the ICE CAVES... NOPE! Ice Caves... in NM; Bandera Volcano @ www.icecaves.com

Not really looking for "the source" as the actual mining of the said deposits was/is rather doubtful, at best. But there is a bit of mystery to the location in question that needs investigated further. The two deposits claimed in the Beale pamphlet came nearly exactly the same number of days prior to the signing and then the ratification of the Adam's Onis Treaty, the source of these two deposits claimed to have come from "what could be" the ceded region in Colorado in question, this transaction also taking place as part of the Adams Onis Treaty. Just a very unusual collection of circumstances. It almost appears as if someone was making very timely installments/payments in conjunction with the progress of the mentioned treaty.

 

[ECS]

Are we confusing E F Beales 1850 "BEALE PAPERS" and his adventures with the 1885 "BEALE PAPERS" of Ward's?

 

[tat2guy]

Are we confusing E F Beales 1850 "BEALE PAPERS" and his adventures with the 1885 "BEALE PAPERS" of Ward's?

Nope. Reading the description from the letter to Morriss that tells that the hunting party traveled in a northerly direction 250-300 miles. Then look at a map of the Colorado disputed territory. Things about that land and the Adams Onis treaty don't make sense to me.

HH Tat

 

[L.C. BAKER]

.....now take a very close look at the ceded territory in Colorado during the Adam's Onis Treaty. Keep in mind the timeliness of the said deposits in relationship to the signing and ratification of that treaty. A curious and rather odd coincidence, perhaps?

Historic regions of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you think it was because of existing Spanish Mines in the area or a repository?

L.C.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Both of these are near Estes Park Colorado, and I think that place falls into the area you are talking about. Of course they are natural structures, but were they used for a duel purpose?

L.C.

 

[bigscoop]

Do you think it was because of existing Spanish Mines in the area or a repository?

L.C.

All we know for sure is that this large track of land was part of the Adma's Onis Treaty without any real description as to why? Florida is explained and obvious, as is the concluded boundary agreement in what was the mutually agreed Neutral Zone in the southwest, but what, "exactly" was up with this track of land far up in Colorado? Why didn't we hear about this disputed region prior to the treaty? Why isn't it clearly detailed and it's importance clearly explained in that treaty? Keep in mind, this isn't a "boundary line" but rather it is a fairly large track of land.

 

[bigscoop]

This basically sums up the blunt of the mystery at hand:

"In the provisions, the United States ceded to Spain its claims to Texas west of the Sabine River. Spain retained possession not only of Texas, but also California and the vast region of New Mexico. At the time, these two territories included all of present-day California and New Mexico along with modern Nevada, Utah, Arizona and sections of Wyoming and Colorado." Apparently the US felt this ceded track of land was worth holding out for, which brings to question their actual level of knowledge of that region in the first place? The treaty was signed in 1818 and the US did have people exploring the region during the year prior, and then of course the famous parties of Pike and Lewis & Clark in earlier years. So what, exactly, was so important about this track of land in Colorado? Ironically, that US party of 1817 did split up and part of them did end up in Santa Fe.

 

[ECS]

In the Adams-Onis Treaty,Spain agreed to relinquish all of Florida to the United States on the condition that the United States RENOUNCE ALL CLAIMS on Texas and the lands beyond,all the way to the Pacific Ocean,FOREVER.
The cede land you mentioned did not happen until 26 years after Adams-Onis,under President Polk and the Mexican -American War,when Mexica was compelled to cede to the US all or parts of California,New Mexico,Arizona,Utah,Nevada,Colorado,and Wyoming.
Also,in ARTICLE V of Adams-Onis,Spain stipulated that"the inhabitants of the territories which HIS CATHOLIC MAJESTY cedes to the United States"were to be "admitted to the enjoyment of all privileges,rights,and immunities of the citizens of the United States"
The citizens of Florida at that time included Spanish,Seminoles,and Free African Americans,so in the summer of 1823.Florida Gov William Pope DuVall,with the help of James Gadsen,held a conclave at Moultrie Creek with more than 350 of Florida's non-white leaders.
It was there that,as Article I of Gadsen's text stated that they would be stripped of all human and property rights-"The undersigned chiefs and warriors,for themselves and their tribes...do cede and relinquish all claims or title which they may have to the whole territory of Florida"
It is interesting to note that both DuVall and Gadsen were involved in the formation of a "Golden Circle",and Gadsen is also known for the GADSEN PURCHASE of lower Arizona and New Mexico.

 

[bigscoop]

In the Adams-Onis Treaty,Spain agreed to relinquish all of Florida to the United States on the condition that the United States RENOUNCE ALL CLAIMS on Texas and the lands beyond,all the way to the Pacific Ocean,FOREVER.
The cede land you mentioned did not happen until 26 years after Adams-Onis,under President Polk and the Mexican -American War,when Mexica was compelled to cede to the US all or parts of California,New Mexico,Arizona,Utah,Nevada,Colorado,and Wyoming.
Also,in ARTICLE V of Adams-Onis,Spain stipulated that"the inhabitants of the territories which HIS CATHOLIC MAJESTY cedes to the United States"were to be "admitted to the enjoyment of all privileges,rights,and immunities of the citizens of the United States"
The citizens of Florida at that time included Spanish,Seminoles,and Free African Americans,so in the summer of 1823.Florida Gov William Pope DuVall,with the help of James Gadsen,held a conclave at Moultrie Creek with more than 350 of Florida's non-white leaders.
It was there that,as Article I of Gadsen's text stated that they would be stripped of all human and property rights-"The undersigned chiefs and warriors,for themselves and their tribes...do cede and relinquish all claims or title which they may have to the whole territory of Florida"
It is interesting to note that both DuVall and Gadsen were involved in the formation of a "Golden Circle",and Gadsen is also known for the GADSEN PURCHASE of lower Arizona and New Mexico.

The land in question was ceded to the US in 1818, "as part of the Adams Onis Treaty". That much is very clear, a historical fact and well documented. But that's all we really know about this region in regards to the US attaining it at that time. The Gadsen Purchase is an entirely different beast.

"ARTICLE V of Adams-Onis,Spain stipulated that the inhabitants of the territories which HIS CATHOLIC MAJESTY cedes to the United States were to be admitted to the enjoyment of all privileges, rights, and immunities of the citizens of the United States" The region in question was included in this statement as a condition of the 1818 treaty. Question is; why, exactly, was it part of that 1818 treaty?

 

[tat2guy]

The land in question was ceded to the US in 1818, "as part of the Adams Onis Treaty". That much is very clear, a historical fact and well documented. But that's all we really know about this region in regards to the US attaining it at that time. The Gadsen Purchase is an entirely different beast. "ARTICLE V of Adams-Onis,Spain stipulated that the inhabitants of the territories which HIS CATHOLIC MAJESTY cedes to the United States were to be admitted to the enjoyment of all privileges, rights, and immunities of the citizens of the United States" The region in question was included in this statement as a condition of the 1818 treaty. Question is; why, exactly, was it part of that 1818 treaty?

And let's add this question to the mix. Why were (2) military expiditions sent specifically to that area? Then look at who sent those expiditions out there!!! It's good

HH Tat

 

[bigscoop]

And let's add this question to the mix. Why were (2) military expiditions sent specifically to that area? Then look at who sent those expiditions out there!!! It's good

HH Tat

Florida, the Texas region, and even in Colorado. In 1817 Monroe stepped up the pressure and/or US presence in all of these effected regions, either directly or indirectly. Monroe was also instrumental in the negotiating of the Louisiana Purchase, a purchase that is shadowed by documented claims of payoffs and unwritten deals.

 

[ECS]

The land in question was ceded to the US in 1818, "as part of the Adams Onis Treaty". That much is very clear, a historical fact and well documented. But that's all we really know about this region in regards to the US attaining it at that time. The Gadsen Purchase is an entirely different beast.

"ARTICLE V of Adams-Onis,Spain stipulated that the inhabitants of the territories which HIS CATHOLIC MAJESTY cedes to the United States were to be admitted to the enjoyment of all privileges, rights, and immunities of the citizens of the United States" The region in question was included in this statement as a condition of the 1818 treaty. Question is; why, exactly, was it part of that 1818 treaty?

The Adams-Onis Treaty determined the boundaries between the Louisiana Purchase and the Spanish domain in the west,which was NEVER determined in 1803.The boundary agreed upon was a fixed line running in a stairlike course from the mouth of the Sabine River to the point where the 42 parallel of latitude meets the Pacific coast.
THE TREATY OF GUADALUPE-HIDALGO,Feb 2,1848 gave the United States title to Texas,New Mexico,and California,and in reyurn,the US paid Mexico $15,000,000 for that land.1853 was the Gadsen Purchase for the land south of the Gila River,the cost $10,000,000.
Concerning ARTICLE V of Adams-Onis- Gen Andrew Jackson and Col Duncan L Clinch raided,killed,and massacred many of Spanish Florida's citizens in their incursions,including the killing of British businessman,Alexander Arbuthnot,and Englishman,Robert Ambrister at the Spanish port of San Marcos de Apalache(St Marks),the Massacre at Prospect Bluff (NEGRO FORT as it was called then),and following the massacre,Jackson ordered Lt James Gadsen to transform that fort into a permnent base for "the projection of US power into Florida".The new fort was named after Gadsen.

 

[bigscoop]

The Adams-Onis Treaty determined the boundaries between the Louisiana Purchase and the Spanish domain in the west,which was NEVER determined in 1803.The boundary agreed upon was a fixed line running in a stairlike course from the mouth of the Sabine River to the point where the 42 parallel of latitude meets the Pacific coast.
THE TREATY OF GUADALUPE-HIDALGO,Feb 2,1848 gave the United States title to Texas,New Mexico,and California,and in reyurn,the US paid Mexico $15,000,000 for that land.1853 was the Gadsen Purchase for the land south of the Gila River,the cost $10,000,000.
Concerning ARTICLE V of Adams-Onis- Gen Andrew Jackson and Col Duncan L Clinch raided,killed,and massacred many of Spanish Florida's citizens in their incursions,including the killing of British businessman,Alexander Arbuthnot,and Englishman,Robert Ambrister at the Spanish port of San Marcos de Apalache(St Marks),the Massacre at Prospect Bluff (NEGRO FORT as it was called then),and following the massacre,Jackson ordered Lt James Gadsen to transform that fort into a permnent base for "the projection of US power into Florida".The new fort was named after Gadsen.

I'm not sure what you're missing here? "Very Clearly"......the "region" in Colorado, as indicated on the referenced map and all others "concerning the ceded territories that were part of the Adams Onis Treaty" include this same "large region" in Colorado. This outlined region "was ceded as part of the Adams Onis Treaty", i.e., it was already clearly owned and ceded to the US way before the Gasden affair. Look at the referenced map again, and all other maps pertaining to the ceded territories that were part of the Adam's Onis Treaty, this same "region" in Colorado will be on those maps. This is not a small borderline, it is a small "territory" in itself. In other words, this is not a fixed line, it is a defined small region, or small territory.