Balance?

[bama20a]

Greetings: I'm new to this,So please be easy with me ,But I read about Ground balance,Automatic,manual & so on.
What does it mean?I've got the Silver umax,& I would like to know the best way to use it,or to get the best use from it.Thanks Mark,,,,

 

[Smudge]

Ground balance can be fixed or manual.

Fixed simply means that the ground balance is set at the factory and is set for use in most average conditions. Depending on your soil, a fixed ground balance can mean a sacrifice in depth. In mild soil, fixed ground balance is perfectly acceptable.

Manual ground balance means the ground balance is set by you and must be done each time you go to hunt, and sometimes has to be reset as you hunt because of changing soil conditions. Your depth on manual ground balance tends to be better and it is not a complicated thing to do.

Hope that helps.

 

[Smudge]

Also, the Silver is a great detector.

Run your sensitivity as high as you can and still keep the machine stable. You'll get better depth.

On your discrimination settings: know that anything above foil will start costing you gold jewelry. But it will force you to dig a lot of trash also. There is no way to avoid that.

If I was in a mood to only coin shoot, I sometimes turned mine up past "pull tab" and dug mostly dimes, copper pennies, quarters, and bigger silver. Dug very little trash. I missed some things to be sure, but if I'm only in the mood to cherry pick, thats what I do.

 

[bama20a]

Thank you Smudge: I havn't got to use mine much,But have enjoyed it when I did.I've learned one think about it,When it says something is there. it is,LOL
I keep mine between the F & O on the foil,sure dig alot of trash,But man is it fun
Hope to get to use it some tomorrow at an ol' ballfield. Mark,,,,,,

 

[mts]

I did a post about severe loss of depth on the Silver uMax when turning the discrimination up all the way. On my machine, I can't even detect a dime at 1" with discrimination up all the way. Be sure to test your machine with high discrimination settings so you know how much depth you'll be losing if you choose to use it.

I realize you said that you keep your discrimination around foil and that's great. But it is tempting to play "dial-a target ID" with the discrimination knob and not knowing how much depth you may lose on your particular machine can wreak havoc with your finds.

I just wanted to point that out so that you don't fall into the same trap that I did. The Silver uMax is a great machine. Good luck.

 

[Monte]

I did a post about severe loss of depth on the Silver uMax when turning the discrimination up all the way. On my machine, I can't even detect a dime at 1" with discrimination up all the way. Be sure to test your machine with high discrimination settings so you know how much depth you'll be losing if you choose to use it.

'mts', I agree with your concluding comment about the Silver µMAX being a good unit for the dollar, especially for the average newcomer to the sport.

What caught my attention was this quoted portion of your post. I know that when set at the maximum Discrimination setting it can impair depth and performance a little, but on my Silver µMAX I am certainly not struggling to detect a 10¢ at less than an inch.

Did you buy your Silver µMAX new or used? Have you tinkered with the GB trimmer or have you checked it for performance? many Tesoro models have too much GB offset from a manual GB adjustment (for those with manual GB control), and those like the Silver Sabre µMAX with a preset GB also have a Threshold audio All Metal or Pinpoint function so you can check them. It's possible your Silver µMAX GB trimmer is set too positive.

I have helped adjust the trimmer of a few used units people acquired and I believe a former owner or tinkerer misadjusted them as they were way too positive. A too positive GB setting with many Tesoro's in the All Metal mode can cause them to lose detection of a big silver $1, often a silver or clad 50¢, and sometimes even encroach on the detection of a 25¢ coin.

because the Silver µMAX doesn't have a true All metal mode and is silent-search only, the GB trimmer has to be set for a 'proper' functional GB setting using a technique I've used and taught for 30+ years. I coined the term 'Power Balancing' to describe it because you are adjusting the GB setting for peak power and performance in the Discriminate mode. It is most notable on the Tesoro models to have a too-high Disc. mode GB.

If you are familiar with tinkering with the innards and haven't read about this technique elsewhere, shoot me an e-mail and I will explain Power Balancing to you. monte@ahrps.org

I'll add here that I almost never run with my discrimination set high, seldom adjusting higher than simple iron nail rejection.

Monte

 

[mts]

Monte, I contacted Tesoro about it and they said that it was normal. But frankly, I didn't see how it could be. But I've been living with it because I really rely more on my Vaquero. I think that I will send the machine in to Tesoro to have it checked. I don't mind tinkering. Like you, I've dabbled in making my own detectors and I'm not afraid to adjust a pot or two. But I think I will try sending it to them to have them give it the green light. Then if it comes back in the same condition I'll look into adjusting the pot myself. I may hit you up for info if it comes to that.

I have to say that your help and information have been excellent. I never really knew that having the ground balance set too positive can have an adverse affect on depth for certain types of targets. Obviously, having the ground balance just right is going to maximize depth. But I would have thought that having it slightly negative would have the same impact as having it slightly positive. It's good to learn that this is not necessarily the case. This info has prompted me to go back and re-test my Vaquero at various ground balance settings to see what impact it has on some known targets.

Thanks for the information!

 

[mts]

And no, I have never heard of the term "power balancing". If you have information about it I'd love to learn more.

Thanks!

 

[Terry Soloman]

I did a post about severe loss of depth on the Silver uMax when turning the discrimination up all the way. On my machine, I can't even detect a dime at 1" with discrimination up all the way. Be sure to test your machine with high discrimination settings so you know how much depth you'll be losing if you choose to use it.

I realize you said that you keep your discrimination around foil and that's great. But it is tempting to play "dial-a target ID" with the discrimination knob and not knowing how much depth you may lose on your particular machine can wreak havoc with your finds.

I just wanted to point that out so that you don't fall into the same trap that I did. The Silver uMax is a great machine. Good luck.

I'm confused.. Why would you turn your "Discrimination" to max, and expect to detect anything? You would effectively be canceling out Everything..

Confused in New York!

 

[mts]

I did a post about severe loss of depth on the Silver uMax when turning the discrimination up all the way. On my machine, I can't even detect a dime at 1" with discrimination up all the way. Be sure to test your machine with high discrimination settings so you know how much depth you'll be losing if you choose to use it.

I realize you said that you keep your discrimination around foil and that's great. But it is tempting to play "dial-a target ID" with the discrimination knob and not knowing how much depth you may lose on your particular machine can wreak havoc with your finds.

I just wanted to point that out so that you don't fall into the same trap that I did. The Silver uMax is a great machine. Good luck.

I'm confused.. Why would you turn your "Discrimination" to max, and expect to detect anything? You would effectively be canceling out Everything..

Confused in New York!

Because when you turn your discrimination up all the way that doesn't mean that discrimination is set at infinity. It just means that you are set at the upper level of discrimination that the circuit has been designed for. And most metal detector companies set the upper discrimination level such that you can still detect items at that level. In fact, my Vaquero loses very little depth (if any) when the discrimination setting is set all the way to max. So clearly it is possible to detect "something" when the discrimination level is set to max on many detectors.

However, I agree that you should expect to lose some depth when you turn the discrimination up all the way. The question is, how much? It varies by detector. And I also think that this is not discussed enough for it to be common knowledge for many detectorists. There are countless videos on youtube showing detectorists playing "dial-a target ID" by thumbing their discrimination knob. What they fail to mention is that this practice can result it false identification of items depending on how deep the target its. It is easy to say that you lose depth with higher discrimination. But many people don't put two and two together to really understand what that truly means when using this technique.

And I think it is safe to say that I was justified in being shocked to find that my detector couldn't detect a dime at 1" with the discrimination setting all the way up. After all, my other two detectors did not exhibit this same behavior. I was also told by a Tesoro rep that this was normal. Thus my decision to caution others about the behavior. Now I'm hearing that perhaps it is not so normal after all.

The bottom line is that everyone should be sure to test their detectors to know how they really work. They should expect to lose some depth when the discrimination knob is turned all the way up. And apparently on some detectors, they may lose a LOT of depth. It can vary from machine to machine. Even two machines of the exact same model can give different results.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Terry Soloman]

Because when you turn your discrimination up all the way that doesn't mean that discrimination is set at infinity. It just means that you are set at the upper level of discrimination that the circuit has been designed for. And most metal detector companies set the upper discrimination level such that you can still detect items at that level. In fact, my Vaquero loses very little depth (if any) when the discrimination setting is set all the way to max. So clearly it is possible to detect "something" when the discrimination level is set to max on many detectors.

However, I agree that you should expect to lose some depth when you turn the discrimination up all the way. The question is, how much? It varies by detector. And I also think that this is not discussed enough for it to be common knowledge for many detectorists. There are countless videos on youtube showing detectorists playing "dial-a target ID" by thumbing their discrimination knob. What they fail to mention is that this practice can result it false identification of items depending on how deep the target its. It is easy to say that you lose depth with higher discrimination. But many people don't put two and two together to really understand what that truly means when using this technique.

And I think it is safe to say that I was justified in being shocked to find that my detector couldn't detect a dime at 1" with the discrimination setting all the way up. After all, my other two detectors did not exhibit this same behavior. I was also told by a Tesoro rep that this was normal. Thus my decision to caution others about the behavior. Now I'm hearing that perhaps it is not so normal after all.

The bottom line is that everyone should be sure to test their detectors to know how they really work. They should expect to lose some depth when the discrimination knob is turned all the way up. And apparently on some detectors, they may lose a LOT of depth. It can vary from machine to machine. Even two machines of the exact same model can give different results.

Does that answer your question?

Not Really. For instance "Balance," or ground balancing has nothing to do with your discrimination setting. Ground balancing is done in all metal mode, and the aim is to make as much ground mineralization disappear as possible. As soon as you start using discrimination, you lose depth. If your discrimination is set at maximum, you'll get minimum depth, and miss just about all gold or silver jewelry. I actually thought you were talking about "Sensitivity," rather than Discrimination. Maximum sensitivity is a good thing, while maximum discrimination is just bad..

 

[mts]

Not Really. For instance "Balance," or ground balancing has nothing to do with your discrimination setting. Ground balancing is done in all metal mode, and the aim is to make as much ground mineralization disappear as possible. As soon as you start using discrimination, you lose depth. If your discrimination is set at maximum, you'll get minimum depth, and miss just about all gold or silver jewelry. I actually thought you were talking about "Sensitivity," rather than Discrimination. Maximum sensitivity is a good thing, while maximum discrimination is just bad..

Your question was: "Why would you turn your "Discrimination" to max, and expect to detect anything?" To which I gave my answer.

Go set the discrimination to max on your detector. Swing it over a silver or clad quarter. Doesn't it detect it? It does on my detector.

I think you are making a generalization about how discrimination works. It is entirely possible to design a detector for which you do NOT lose significant depth by setting the discrimination at the maximum setting. The important thing is to know how your detector works. Only then can you feel comfortable turning your discrimination knob all the way up should you choose to do so.

Finally, I am NOT advocating turning the discrimination knob all the way up for hunting. I keep my discrimination as low as possible. So you are preaching to the choir on that one. The fact remains though that many people advocate hunting with low discrimination and then thumbing the discrimination knob up as a form of "dial-a target ID". I do not do that anymore for the reasons cited. Thus my original warning.

Personally, I think we are arguing semantics. I simply wanted to point out a behavior I was seeing. I was not advocating turning up discrimination to max. Quite the contrary.

 

[TC-NM]

Greetings: I'm new to this,So please be easy with me ,But I read about Ground balance,Automatic,manual & so on.
What does it mean?I've got the Silver umax,& I would like to know the best way to use it,or to get the best use from it.Thanks Mark,,,,

Bama20a,

To put it simply, ground balancing is the detector set to see thru the low to high mineralization of your ground, another words, the ground is cancelled out. The targets buried in the ground (coins, rings, and trash, etc.) are easily seen by the detector. On my Vaquero, I turn the GB knob (plus/minus) while pumping the coil over the ground. I try to achieve the "perfect" sound or constant smooth sound while pumping the coil over the ground, another words there shouldn't be any change of pitch to the tone when you pump the coil. Also another thing to remember is to find a clean patch of ground to GB free of any targets.

If you have a sensitivity knob, the higher the setting, the greater the detection strength (not just depth) will be for the targets that I mentioned. The flipside to this is that mineralized ground will also be detected including the junk, another words, a lot more falsing.

You didn't mention what Tesoro detector you have? I would start with the factory setting, if it starts to be erratic and falsing occurs, then just turn the sensitivity knob down (-) until it smooths out. This would be done in All-Metal. Once you have had this set, then turn from AM to Disc. . . . start detecting. My personal experience here is that I check my GB every half-hour or so or when I see a change in soil(s) e.g., sand, red soil, dark soil, etc. and even when I jump into a tot lot.

Hope this helps, Good Luck!

TC-NM

 

[U.K. Brian]

There's some really weird ideas on the forums but the claim that its possible to design a detector that can be used on its maximum discrimination setting and not lose depth is madness.

The few detectors that can be used at a high discrimination setting and still do find a reasonable range of wanted targets have one secret....the discrimination level when set at maximum is not in fact at a high discrimination level. Some detectors at maximum rejection will not reject a ring pull and the reason its done that way is to save people from themselves. Discrimination has a price and for deeper finds its to high.

A similar but reversed arguement that surfaces every few years is someone claiming their detector is better because it rejects small iron when the discrimination is set to zero (like older Tesoro's did). Thats not good, its bad ! At least Tesoro learnt that lesson.

 

[mts]

There's some really weird ideas on the forums but the claim that its possible to design a detector that can be used on its maximum discrimination setting and not lose depth is madness.

The few detectors that can be used at a high discrimination setting and still do find a reasonable range of wanted targets have one secret....the discrimination level when set at maximum is not in fact at a high discrimination level. Some detectors at maximum rejection will not reject a ring pull and the reason its done that way is to save people from themselves. Discrimination has a price and for deeper finds its to high.

A similar but reversed arguement that surfaces every few years is someone claiming their detector is better because it rejects small iron when the discrimination is set to zero (like older Tesoro's did). Thats not good, its bad ! At least Tesoro learnt that lesson.

Exactly.... but you just contradicted yourself. You just said that it is impossible to design a detector that can be used on its maximum discrimination setting and not lose depth. Then you went on to talk about how technically, a maximum is relative and it is indeed possible to design a detector such that the maximum setting has the same depth as a lower setting.

It's the classic "this amp goes to 11" argument.

 

[Smudge]

Even set at maximum discrimination, most of the Tesoro's I have used will still hit quarters and I believe they'll still hit dimes as well.

 

[mts]

Even set at maximum discrimination, most of the Tesoro's I have used will still hit quarters and I believe they'll still hit dimes as well.

My Vaquero loses very little depth on quarters and dimes when set at max discrimination. It is my Silver uMax that seems to be the problem. Some day I'll get around to sending it in for repair.

 

[U.K. Brian]

No contradiction what so ever. The manufacturer just limits the discrimination range to such a low maximum level that few targets are lost when set to maximum.

Several detectors had these limited "top ends" at one time and they all disappeared in favour of the conventional full range machines.

 

[mts]

No contradiction what so ever. The manufacturer just limits the discrimination range to such a low maximum level that few targets are lost when set to maximum.

Several detectors had these limited "top ends" at one time and they all disappeared in favour of the conventional full range machines.

Ummm..... I have two such detectors that can still be bought today so I'm not sure why you think these detectors have disappeared. Also, both of these detectors have no problem discriminating out zinc cents and everything below when set to maximum. They will not tell you the difference between a copper cent and a silver coin. But most people find that to be reasonable discrimination capability. And there is very little loss of depth when set to maximum.

We are arguing semantics though. The reality is that everyone needs to test their metal detector to determine how much depth is lost (if much at all) when they turn their discrimination up to maximum.

 

[U.K. Brian]

Afraid your not paying attention to whats been said. Best is discrimination that runs from zero (all metal) to eliminating almost everything as you have a full choice as to what level you want to employ.

A test like you suggest may well come up with a detector that loses very little depth just because everyone else has a much higher level of rejection when they turn their machines rejection to full.