✅ SOLVED Big buckle

ticm · Sep 28, 2009

Dug this up today. It was about six inches deep. What would this big buckle be used for? It looks like brass to me.

CRUSADER · Sep 28, 2009

Horse tack

johnnyi · Sep 28, 2009

That's definately an odd ball ticm, and I've never seen one quite like it found over here. What's really distinctive about it is that left side which is a shape that we find as the extreme point of some of our harness buckles (it's indented to allow for the strap to lie flush). On most all we find however, the pin is located at the extreme opposite side. Yet on your's, this indented side is the narrower side, and as well, rust indicates the pin once rested against the opposite (right) wider side that is not indented for the strap!

This particular design represents a lot of extra brass (a full half the buckle) being used for what seems to be no more than a function of a keeper, which is again unusual for harness, as these were usually purely functional.

I'll be looking forward to seeing examples of such a buckle with this "reversed" taper, and indented side, and mid point pin mount, as again, we don't find many of these over here.

Montana Jim · Sep 28, 2009

Horse Tack

johnnyi · Sep 28, 2009

Jim, have you ever seen one with the particular characturistics I mentioned in my post?

Silver Searcher · Sep 28, 2009

johnnyi said:
Jim, have you ever seen one with the particular characturistics I mentioned in my post?

This one is similar Johnnyi, breeching dee. dimentions....40mm by 35mm :P

SS

johnnyi · Sep 28, 2009

No S.S., not at all the same. We find hundreds of center pin rectangular buckles here too. This is very different. You have to look at it closely. I won't repost the differences as they are in my original posting.

Actually it is easier to show than explain....

When we find center mounted pin harness buckles over here they are almost always concentric, as is the second one in the scan.

The buckle we are looking at is not concentric though. It has two different types of ends, yet it is center pin mounted.

The first buckle in the scan shows a somewhat similar indentation to accept a strap, something we find on most single loop buckles where the pin is mounted on the small edge.

If you look at the buckle we are trying to identify though, the center mounted pin did not rest against this edge (no wear, and as well, rusting against the edge it mounted against). In addition, there is no indentation on casting of the opposite side to keep a strap flush.

In other words, on this buckle a strap of leather was apparently attached to the center mount, and the indented side layed against the long end of the strap rather than act as a keeper for the small end. It's hard to explain this, other than this was more for "looks" than for function. That might suggest that this was a man's belt buckle where the entire brass of the buckle would be visible. .

Silver Searcher · Sep 28, 2009

I see were you are coming from Johnnyi, but the pictures of Buckles you show donn't have a raised centre bar :icon_scratch:

the one I posted has, my point is the only Buckles that I have found like this are Breeching Dees of Horse tack

a plain double looped retangular harness buckle with offset bar.

SS

BioProfessor · Sep 28, 2009

Horse tack.

Daryl

shaun7 · Sep 28, 2009

I found one yesterday and it was still on the horse...honest

johnnyi · Sep 28, 2009

"I see were you are coming from Johnnyi, but the pictures of Buckles you show donn't have a raised centre bar the one I posted has, my point is the only Buckles that I have found like this are Breeching Dees of Horse tack"

Yes, of course I understand that S.S.. Incidently, the buckle to the right I showed does have the raised bar (doesn't show in picture) but that's not the point. One thing about harness tack is that it usually confoirms to known styles (if itr ain't broke don't fix it) ticm's buckle is entirely different. I posted the differences, yet I hear "tack" over and over, but not any example which remotel;y matches the features of ticm's.

Most of us have found scores if not hundreds of harness buckles, many with the raised center bar. A buckle with both the raised center bar AND the one end recessed is very unusual, particularly as the pin rode on the opposite end (not the recessed end). I've gone through hundreds and have not come across one. I've been searching the web for an example and have not found one. If the people who say "harness tack" have seen or have found an example like this then they'd be doing ticm a favor, because I doubt he would have posted this example if he didn't recognize these unique differences also.

Silver Searcher · Sep 28, 2009

johnnyi said:
"I see were you are coming from Johnnyi, but the pictures of Buckles you show donn't have a raised centre bar the one I posted has, my point is the only Buckles that I have found like this are Breeching Dees of Horse tack"

Yes, of course I understand that S.S.. Incidently, the buckle to the right I showed does have the raised bar (doesn't show in picture) but that's not the point. One thing about harness tack is that it usually confoirms to known styles (if itr ain't broke don't fix it) ticm's buckle is entirely different. I posted the differences, yet I hear "tack" over and over, but not any example which remotel;y matches the features of ticm's.

All of us who've spent year's searching old sites here in the U.S. have found scores if not hundreds of harness buckles, many with the raised center bar. A buckle with both the raised center bar AND the one end recessed is very unusual, particularly as the pin rode on the opposite end. I've gone through hundreds and have not come across one. I've been searching the web for an example and have not found one. If the people who say "harness tack" have seen or have found an example like this then they'd be doing ticm a favor, because I doubt he would have posted this example if he didn't recognize these unique differences also.

I'm trying to help on this one Johnnyi for you and the poster, if no outher Buckle resembling this one can be found, perhaps, and I say perhaps a new variant of a horse related buckle :dontknow:

SS

johnnyi · Sep 28, 2009

I don't know either S.S., but I'm not sure if assuming harness does much good when this dern thing could be holding up a pair of pants as well.

A few examples found in the fields (which hopefully get posted) would probably cinch it though one way or another, as I doubt a guy lost his "trou" mid-field

. Maybe Buckleboy has seen one like this?

Silver Searcher · Sep 28, 2009

johnnyi said:
I don't know either S.S., but I'm not sure if assuming harness does much good when this dern thing could be holding up a pair of pants as well.
A few examples found in the fields (which hopefully get posted) would probably cinch it though one way or another, as I doubt a guy lost his "trou" mid-field . Maybe Buckleboy has seen one like this?

If a belt Buckle.....would not that make it an uncomfortable one :icon_scratch:

either way round, would have the raised centre bar causing a problem :help:

SS

johnnyi · Sep 28, 2009

You're right S.S., that bar is sure raised high. I guess it's hard to tell exactly how the leather would lay no mater whether it went around a horse's body or a man's. What ever it is, I think by now we at least know ticm did find a scarce, if not rare style of buckle, at least scarce on this side of the pond.

Montana Jim · Sep 28, 2009

It is a weird shape - four inches is big too.

I based my response soley on it's plain and utilitarian look/shape.

johnnyi · Sep 28, 2009

You're right Jim, four inches is just too big. Even a C.W. standard belt plate only measures 3 1/2". I think S.S. might be right also that this might be a breaching dee. (is it too large for that also

) Such a buckle was very visible (so it would be exposed to show the double brass) and it didn't take the strain (as it only supported a light load, or stopped forward motion) which might be why we see little wear on this one. It might also be why we don't find many of these large buckles of this type lost. At any rate it's a neat one, unusual to boot, and thanks for everyone's patience while trying to see exactly what it was used for. If this buckle is right sized, good precise i.d. S.S. !

Here's a link which might show a buckle very similar to this one (center bar, one side recessed, double loop, etc.) Scroll down to the horse diagrahm and check part #18 (does it seem scaled to be 4"?) :dontknow:

http://www.drivingessentials.com/images/Harness/Zilco/Classic Harness.pdf