BLM

[fenixdigger]

It's always been a simple matter. Be famous and broke or unknown and wealthy. If you just have to be a superstar,, learn to sing. ALWAYS keep a substitute bag of "finds" to show. Use your head not your mouth.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Lesjcbs, I don't get it. If you or I find something on "farmer bob's farm" here in the USA (with his permission) worth $1,000,000, then guess what? That's entirely between you and farmer Bob as to the split, or who gets it, etc.... The government here has no say-so about those gold bars on farmer bob's land, since ..... doh ... it was FARMER BOB'S land. I don't need the USA's "thankyou". Nor do I need the USA to buy it from me at what they consider the "fair market value" or to "grant me that I can keep it". It was and is simply mine (or farmer Bob's) to begin with. We can put it on ebay and let the fair-market value prevail. So how, oh how, oh how, is the British system superior??

As for the things found on public/federal lands, as I told you before above: The UK guys who are getting those thankyou's and buy-outs are not finding them on british federal lands, if I'm not mistaken. And CERTAINLY not on sensitive archaeological sites there. Hence the UK system is not a positive incentive to go finding things on federal land there, since I think (correct me if I'm wrong) their federal lands are not free to tromp on with md'rs, the same as the USA federal lands have supposed limitations as well. That's why you rarely hear of British hunters doing park turf, or public forests, etc... (correct me if I'm wrong). They almost exclusively do farmer's fields with permission.


Hence neither the british, or the USA system rewards or encourages or incentivizes the hunting of federal lands. In other words, in the same way we have limitations here on federal lands (and/or especially sensitive archie historic monuments and such), SO TOO do the British have their laws for places not to detect. And their "rewards" system of buying people's stuff and thanking them, does NOT allow them to hunt "anywhere nilly willy".

 

[lesjcbs]

Well said fenixdigger and because ARPA is all about punishment, it precipitates keeping ones mouth shut or they will forfeit it all.

The UK system is superior in that it will pay the finder for the find, no matter where it is found, and in several cases, both the finder and farmer bob were paid handsomely. Everything, including the land, in the UK belongs to the Queen, even artifacts that are found on farmer bobs farm. This is what I understand.


Now I agree with you, I don't need, and much less want government telling me what I can and cannot do with something I find on farmer bobs land. That should be between him and me only. But in the case of real valuable items such as Spanish artifacts, they do and have done exactly that in the past and they have many ways (loopholes) of getting it done. I gave an example of that in my last post. ARPA is all about punishment, threatening,fines and not rewarding in any degree.


To switch gears here a little, back in the 70's, I attended Merced CA J.C. That's not far from where you are. During that time I took an Archaeology class. We went up near Lake McClure on a dig one Saturday with the Professor. We found some bones, bullet shells, and a few other artifacts. He took them back to the college and put them in his back room with all the other artifacts. WOW, the room was stacked from floor to ceiling with all kinds of things. I can only guess how many years of digs were represented in there. But get this, as far as I know, they are still there to this day.


Now what we often hear from the Archaeologist is these artifacts are to be left in place so the public can come along and enjoy them too. Or we hear, these will go into a museum somewhere so all can see and enjoy them etc. Sounds nice and responsible but that is not what happens.


For sure, some artifacts will be put in a museum but I'll bet that somewhere around 1% or less make it to a museum. The rest lay in some Archaeology Department's back room,never to be seen again. Nonetheless, the lie is loudly announced that they will all go into a museum somewhere for all to enjoy. I say, what a laugh. Your thoughts please.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

....... The UK system is superior in that it will pay the finder for the find, no matter where it is found,......

No, the UK system will not "pay the finder" ....if the finder found it on land that wasn't legal to be detecting on, to begin with. Same as the USA: some places you can't detect.

You seem to think that all public land there in the UK is open-game-nilly-willy. Their equivalence of BLM (historic sites on public land anyhow) can not be hunted there either! Since the subject here (in the OP) is BLM land, then no, this is not an equivalent illustration. You do not get rewarded, in either country, for hunting in places you weren't supposed to.

 

[cudamark]

Lesjcbs, I don't get it. If you or I find something on "farmer bob's farm" here in the USA (with his permission) worth $1,000,000, then guess what? That's entirely between you and farmer Bob as to the split, or who gets it, etc.... The government here has no say-so about those gold bars on farmer bob's land, since ..... doh ... it was FARMER BOB'S land. I don't need the USA's "thankyou". Nor do I need the USA to buy it from me at what they consider the "fair market value" or to "grant me that I can keep it". It was and is simply mine (or farmer Bob's) to begin with. We can put it on ebay and let the fair-market value prevail. So how, oh how, oh how, is the British system superior??

As for the things found on public/federal lands, as I told you before above: The UK guys who are getting those thankyou's and buy-outs are not finding them on british federal lands, if I'm not mistaken. And CERTAINLY not on sensitive archaeological sites there. Hence the UK system is not a positive incentive to go finding things on federal land there, since I think (correct me if I'm wrong) their federal lands are not free to tromp on with md'rs, the same as the USA federal lands have supposed limitations as well. That's why you rarely hear of British hunters doing park turf, or public forests, etc... (correct me if I'm wrong). They almost exclusively do farmer's fields with permission.


Hence neither the british, or the USA system rewards or encourages or incentivizes the hunting of federal lands. In other words, in the same way we have limitations here on federal lands (and/or especially sensitive archie historic monuments and such), SO TOO do the British have their laws for places not to detect. And their "rewards" system of buying people's stuff and thanking them, does NOT allow them to hunt "anywhere nilly willy".

Find some Indian bones on your property and see what happens. Private land or not, ARPA, the local Indian tribes, and any archie within earthquake distance will come down on you like the 10 plagues of Egypt. The best policy as I see it is to just keep your mouth shut about finding ANYTHING important.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Find some Indian bones on your property and see what happens. Private land or not, ARPA, the local Indian tribes, and any archie within earthquake distance will come down on you like the 10 plagues of Egypt. The best policy as I see it is to just keep your mouth shut about finding ANYTHING important.

Hi Mark. Interesting that you say that about "indian bones on ones own property". Are you sure about that? Because if so, then what's to stop the same logic from applying to metal items I find on my own land? Because the same arpa document that covers indian bones, also .... in the same breaths....... covers archaeologically signficant items, even of a metal nature (hence the oft-cited "50 yr. " rule, etc...).

So if what you're saying is true, then could it apply to metal items too? I don't think so. Because I think human remains (of ANY nationality) are in a legal class unto themselves. Thus if I find culturally significant metal items (a cache, or Christopher columbus's belt buckle, or whatever) it is mine to keep, with no fear of showing it around. But if I find a skeleton (or individual human bones), maybe the laws are different for that?

I dunno. But the bottom line is, you're right: We can all keep this simple can't we ? With your admonition of:

"The best policy as I see it is to just keep your mouth shut about finding ANYTHING important "

 

[lesjcbs]

No, the UK system will not "pay the finder" ....if the finder found it on land that wasn't legal to be detecting on, to begin with. Same as the USA: some places you can't detect.

You seem to think that all public land there in the UK is open-game-nilly-willy. Their equivalence of BLM (historic sites on public land anyhow) can not be hunted there either! Since the subject here (in the OP) is BLM land, then no, this is not an equivalent illustration. You do not get rewarded, in either country, for hunting in places you weren't supposed to.

I can now only refer you to: Anglo Saxon Gold Hunting With A Metal Detector - What Happens If you Find Treasure in the UK

 

[New Orleans Relic]

Hey vegetarians....! Why are you eating those animals food!?

"Vegan", an old Indian word, meaning "can't hunt". Lol
Ray

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

I can now only refer you to: Anglo Saxon Gold Hunting With A Metal Detector - What Happens If you Find Treasure in the UK

lesjcbs, I have read your link. None of that is any secret, and is well known and talked about in md'ing circles (I've had several friends who've flown over just to hunt there).

HOWEVER, read your article/link closely. Again I say to you: all that "reward" and "thankyou" that you think is so great, is for private land. Even the one they profile : the anglo saxon gold hoard, was found on private farmers land. NOT the equivalent of blm (federal) land in the USA.

Nothing in that article/link addresses the "where" of where those UK hunters can hunt. The reimbursement system does NOT allow all those UK hunters to hunt nilly-willy anywhere they want. They DO INDEED have "off-limits" places JUST LIKE WE DO.

So PLEASE stop thinking this UK system allows md'ing on all their public lands. It doesn't. They too have restrictions on where they can hunt, just like us.

So the link you need to find for us, is something that says UK hunters can hunt in public lands there (parks, schools, forests, beaches, etc....). I don't think you're going to find it. Well, you might find something about how they can hunt certain public land zones, sure. BUT SO TOO CAN WE HUNT public land zones, so long as it's not prohibited here as well.

Thus the reimbursement system has nothing at all do with the bigger question of where they hunt, vs where we hunt. So our federal arpa probably does indeed have legal parallels to laws in England. In other words, there's public or federal lands there (especially archaeologically senstive monuments type places) that they can't hunt either. And the "reimbursement" system does NOT change that.

Do you get it ??

 

[lesjcbs]

lesjcbs, I have read your link. None of that is any secret, and is well known and talked about in md'ing circles (I've had several friends who've flown over just to hunt there).

HOWEVER, read your article/link closely. Again I say to you: all that "reward" and "thankyou" that you think is so great, is for private land. Even the one they profile : the anglo saxon gold hoard, was found on private farmers land. NOT the equivalent of blm (federal) land in the USA.

Nothing in that article/link addresses the "where" of where those UK hunters can hunt. The reimbursement system does NOT allow all those UK hunters to hunt nilly-willy anywhere they want. They DO INDEED have "off-limits" places JUST LIKE WE DO.

So PLEASE stop thinking this UK system allows md'ing on all their public lands. It doesn't. They too have restrictions on where they can hunt, just like us.

So the link you need to find for us, is something that says UK hunters can hunt in public lands there (parks, schools, forests, beaches, etc....). I don't think you're going to find it. Well, you might find something about how they can hunt certain public land zones, sure. BUT SO TOO CAN WE HUNT public land zones, so long as it's not prohibited here as well.

Thus the reimbursement system has nothing at all do with the bigger question of where they hunt, vs where we hunt. So our federal arpa probably does indeed have legal parallels to laws in England. In other words, there's public or federal lands there (especially archaeologically senstive monuments type places) that they can't hunt either. And the "reimbursement" system does NOT change that.

Do you get it ??

In my first post #16 I brought up the issue of incentives to turn things in that seem to be lacking in ARPA. Along the way, we strayed away from that point and out of courtesy to you, I let it go to see where we would go with it. So, from my post #20, I ask again, and will keep asking until I get a straight answer: "Where is the incentive in the U.S. ARPA law to turn something very valuable in? Where is the payment or the "thank you" at, whether it is found on private or Federal lands?"

Do you get it?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

In my first post #16 I brought up the issue of incentives to turn things in that seem to be lacking in ARPA. Along the way, we strayed away from that point and out of courtesy to you, I let it go to see where we would go with it. So, from my post #20, I ask again, and will keep asking until I get a straight answer: "Where is the incentive in the U.S. ARPA law to turn something very valuable in? Where is the payment or the "thank you" at, whether it is found on private or Federal lands?"

Do you get it?

Ok, sure, you're right: the incentive is the same in each country: the minute you detect where you can't, the incentive to turn something in is the same: zero (nothing, nada).

Thus I guess we're agreed. No benefit to the UK system

 

[cudamark]

Hi Mark. Interesting that you say that about "indian bones on ones own property". Are you sure about that? Because if so, then what's to stop the same logic from applying to metal items I find on my own land? Because the same arpa document that covers indian bones, also .... in the same breaths....... covers archaeologically signficant items, even of a metal nature (hence the oft-cited "50 yr. " rule, etc...).

So if what you're saying is true, then could it apply to metal items too? I don't think so. Because I think human remains (of ANY nationality) are in a legal class unto themselves. Thus if I find culturally significant metal items (a cache, or Christopher columbus's belt buckle, or whatever) it is mine to keep, with no fear of showing it around. But if I find a skeleton (or individual human bones), maybe the laws are different for that?

I dunno. But the bottom line is, you're right: We can all keep this simple can't we ? With your admonition of:

"The best policy as I see it is to just keep your mouth shut about finding ANYTHING important "

Yup, that's the best policy if you want to avoid trouble. The ARPA laws may be the same for ALL old artifacts but they don't seem to be treated the same. There have been many local construction sites where artifacts and bodies/bones have been unearthed. When it's an old non-Indian item or body, the coroner or local archie is called in, they look around a little, take away whatever they find for future study, and then the construction crew is tight back to work. If there's any indication it's Indian related, that site will be shut down for months while they do a full evaluation and excavation like it's King Tut's tomb.
As for the English laws, I have a question since I haven't hunted there, YET. Are the public parks, schools, forests, and beaches off limits? If not, what happens when you find something significant on those lands? I got the impression that their antiquity laws governed those areas as well as the private land. I guess I need to read more!

 

[lesjcbs]

Yup, that's the best policy if you want to avoid trouble. The ARPA laws may be the same for ALL old artifacts but they don't seem to be treated the same. There have been many local construction sites where artifacts and bodies/bones have been unearthed. When it's an old non-Indian item or body, the coroner or local archie is called in, they look around a little, take away whatever they find for future study, and then the construction crew is tight back to work. If there's any indication it's Indian related, that site will be shut down for months while they do a full evaluation and excavation like it's King Tut's tomb.
As for the English laws, I have a question since I haven't hunted there, YET. Are the public parks, schools, forests, and beaches off limits? If not, what happens when you find something significant on those lands? I got the impression that their antiquity laws governed those areas as well as the private land. I guess I need to read more!

That's right, mums the word in he U.S. Also, keep this in mind, ARCHIES consider themselves the premier and only authorized diggers.