Blowing The Cast Iron Lids Off Of Beale

[bigscoop]

April (15[SUP]th[/SUP]) 1817, "the persons then at Galveston consisted of about thirty or forty in number, including sailors &C (company), six of whom assembled aboard the schooner, Carmelita, belonging to Mr. Bartholomew Lafon, late of New Orleans and “engineer in the service of the United States to witness"; Durier, John Dicoing, Perenueau, said B. Lafon, Rousselin, and this depondent (Raymond Espanol) who formed this new government."

 

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[ECS]

April (15[SUP]th[/SUP]) 1817, "the persons then at Galveston consisted of about thirty or forty in number, including sailors &C (company), six of whom assembled aboard the schooner, Carmelita, belonging to Mr. Bartholomew Lafon, late of New Orleans and “engineer in the service of the United States to witness"; Durier, John Dicoing, Perenueau, said B. Lafon, Rousselin, and this depondent (Raymond Espanol) who formed this new government."

...and this relates to the Thomas J Beale of Ward's 1885 Beale Papers?

 

[bigscoop]

Names, business, there are many ways to track people down. Bartholomew Lafon, or Barthelemy as is the actual spelling, was a noted New Orleans architect/engineer, this is the same Lafon who was at Galveston Island on April 15[SUP]th[/SUP], 1817.

Lafon's reason for entering this fold was the same as the others, if the United States won Texas in the treaty negotiations then Galveston Island/St. Louis Island would be an important port serving all that new west, a magnificent city sure to erupt at this site and cities need to be planned and engineered. “Construct, Explore, Colonize.” So the enterprise, the St. Louis Corp, was actually serving two causes in pursuit of just one ultimate goal in the end, but first you had to win that territory from Spain before that ultimate goal could become a reality.



Unfortunately for Lafon, he would contract yellow fever and die in 1820, as would many others.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Names, business, there are many ways to track people down. Bartholomew Lafon, or Barthelemy as is the actual spelling, was a noted New Orleans architect/engineer, this is the same Lafon who was at Galveston Island on April 15[SUP]th[/SUP], 1817.

Lafon's reason for entering this fold was the same as the others, if the United States won Texas in the treaty negotiations then Galveston Island/St. Louis Island would be an important port serving all that new west, a magnificent city sure to erupt at this site and cities need to be planned and engineered. “Construct, Explore, Colonize.” So the enterprise, the St. Louis Corp, was actually serving two causes in pursuit of just one ultimate goal in the end, but first you had to win that territory from Spain before that ultimate goal could become a reality.



Unfortunately for Lafon, he would contract yellow fever and die in 1820, as would many others.

Where...? Where is he buried...? Got documentation...?

 

[bigscoop]

Where...? Where is he buried...? Got documentation...?

It's well documented, but don't confuse who he was, just an interesting character who was involved at both New Orleans and the island, St. Louis.

 

[ECS]

Http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Barthelemy_Lafon
French "connexion", pirates, Battle of New Orleans, free children born of color, I think Bigscoop is going the distance on this one, combining ALL his theories, and yet, still no mention of Beale.

 

[bigscoop]

Lafon had a ship named the Carmelita (various spellings) that I believe was named after his daughter. Sometimes there is all sorts of information that can be found on some of these referenced ships, such as passenger list, crew list, cargoes, ports visited, destinations, all that kind of stuff. "If a man was on his horse, and that horse went someplace, then the man on that horse must have gone there to." A pretty safe deduction, I'd say.

 

[bigscoop]

Http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Barthelemy_Lafon
French "connexion", pirates, Battle of New Orleans, free children born of color, I think Bigscoop is going the distance on this one, combining ALL his theories, and yet, still no mention of Beale.

I think your frustration and eagerness to confront the northern threat is causing you lose sight of what threads and post are even relevant to the thread you're posting on. Theories, thank god, and just as we hope, evolve depending on the increased information obtained. Thanks to folks like you it's not good enough these days to simply say, "It's a local, Virginia, fiction, Risque family thing for parlor entertainment.."

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I think your frustration and eagerness to confront the northern threat is causing you lose sight of what threads and post are even relevant to the thread you're posting on. Theories, thank god, and just as we hope, evolve depending on the increased information obtained. Thanks to folks like you it's not good enough these days to simply say, "It's a local, Virginia, fiction, Risque family thing for parlor entertainment.."

LOL! Well the Beale PAPERS PAMPHLET is about Virginia, ONLY. YOU are the one adding to it, to "CONFUSE" yourself & others...

 

[bigscoop]

LOL! Well the Beale PAPERS PAMPHLET is about Virginia, ONLY. YOU are the one adding to it, to "CONFUSE" yourself & others...

Is it? Virginia is just where the story ends, but before those deposits there is mention of St. Louis, Santa Fe, and that region 350 miles north of Santa Fe. So, I think the "local thing" has been mostly contributed to by those with romantic ties to Virginia as the story is anything but an entirely Virginia story, quite the opposite, indeed. Unless, of course, these folks believe that St Louis, Santa Fe, and the referenced region in Colorado were all part of Virginia during 1817-1822. All of this "Virginia romance, lore, and tunnel vision" has been the absolute biggest promotional farst since day one, the narration itself even concluding otherwise.

 

[ECS]

... "If a man was on his horse, and that horse went someplace, then the man on that horse must have gone there to." ...

Are you now claiming that Beale "Rode through the desert on a horse with no name"?

 

[ECS]

This is what the "American Beale party" was actually involved in...

[/I]... this is in reference to those who were part of the "original" agreement/contract, all of this later activity being formed from that prior arrangement.So think in terms of corporate officers/stock holders, and employees. Thomas Beale, by the very nature of the narration, was an "elected officer" in charge of the recruiting of several men for specific task, this making him a man of elected position, as in one of those corporate officers, or stockholders in the, "perilous enterprise" being undertaken...

So far this sea tale of Beale and the pirates has the heat of a hot galley broadside.

 

[bigscoop]

Are you now claiming that Beale "Rode through the desert on a horse with no name"?

Man you really are growing more and more desperate in face of the northern aggressor........even for you that statement is quite the stretch of one's own unawareness and imagination as to what has just been posted. No wonder you're having such difficult time staying on topic.

 

[ECS]

Lafon had a ship named the Carmelita (various spellings) that I believe was named after his daughter...

Mathew "Mexico" Sherman Captained Patterson's ship TORPEDO. What do you believe it was named after?

 

[bigscoop]

Mathew "Mexico" Sherman Captained Patterson's ship TORPEDO. What do you believe it was named after?

Since you introduced all of this to this thread, not me, why don't you elaborate and enlighten us with those facts. Not sure what bearing it has on the subject at hand but I'll gladly entertain those facts as I'm always interested in learning new information about such things.

I'm especially waiting for you to enlighten us on how a man, an American ship captain, earns the nickname "Mexico" during a time when all of Mexico is in revolt and seeking their liberation from Spain? I'm sure he had absolutely no connection or interest in Mexico to have earned that nickname, probably earned it because he had never been there or had any interest in the place at all. Can't wait to hear your logical or educated explanation on this issue?

 

[Benjamin Gates]

Is it? Virginia is just where the story ends, but before those deposits there is mention of St. Louis, Santa Fe, and that region 350 miles north of Santa Fe. So, I think the "local thing" has been mostly contributed to by those with romantic ties to Virginia as the story is anything but an entirely Virginia story, quite the opposite, indeed. Unless, of course, these folks believe that St Louis, Santa Fe, and the referenced region in Colorado were all part of Virginia during 1817-1822. All of this "Virginia romance, lore, and tunnel vision" has been the absolute biggest promotional farst since day one, the narration itself even concluding otherwise.

bigscoop, any chance of Virginia being old Virginia? This 1788 map shows original Virginia extending west to the Mississippi River and north to the Ohio river.

http://www.libs.uga.edu/darchive/hargrett/maps/1788p7.jpg

 

[bigscoop]

bigscoop, any chance of Virginia being old Virginia? This 1788 map shows original Virginia extending west to the Mississippi River and north to the Ohio river.

http://www.libs.uga.edu/darchive/hargrett/maps/1788p7.jpg

The map is accurate to the times, of course, but the point of debate was that the narration wasn't just confined to Virginia, new or old, as places like St. Louis, Santa Fe. and 350 miles north of Santa Fe, or what was to become Colorado, still laid well west of either. This is something that local promotion simply ignores, the fact that the narration wasn't just a Virginia tale, as those folks very defensively like to promote and defend. Truth is simply that a great deal of the narration reaches far beyond Virginia and only concludes there, which makes the contents anything but a proud Virginia only narration, quite the opposite, indeed. In fact, according to the narration the holder of the alleged key wasn't even in Virginia, or even east of the Mississippi for that matter.

 

[ECS]

...

I'm especially waiting for you to enlighten us on how a man, an American ship captain, earns the nickname "Mexico" during a time when all of Mexico is in revolt and seeking their liberation from Spain? I'm sure he had absolutely no connection or interest in Mexico to have earned that nickname, probably earned it because he had never been there or had any interest in the place at all. Can't wait to hear your logical or educated explanation on this issue?

Bigscoop, my friend, you are one who brings good old "Mexico" Sherman into the tale ever since you saw the name "Sherman" mentioned in John Laflin's forged Lafitte memoirs. With all this New Orleans pirate "connexions", it stands to reason that eventually Mathew "Mexico" Sherman would be mentioned along with Girard and Patterson's Canton Company since so many pirates and sea voyages are discussed as a means of travel in the 1885 Beale Papers.

Once you get Girard and Patterson back into the theory, then you connect a Bonaparte and Bonapartist activity in Bedford county in your current everyone in the United States and those with ties to America during the first 20 years of the 19th century are all part of the "real" Beale story behind the fictional Beale story that was written and copyrighted in Ward's 1885 Beale Papers as "authentic statements".

You do seem desperate to prove that there is a story behind the Beale story of the job pamphlet, even if it has nothing whatsoever to do with Beale, Morriss, or those behind the creation, copyright, publishing, advertising, or sale of the Beale Papers in the Lynchburg and surrounding area- not in Sante Fe, not in St Louis, and not in New Orleans, ONLY in Lynchburg and surrounding area.
...and you claim it is not a Virginia adventure/treasure story?

 

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop, my friend, you are one who brings good old "Mexico" Sherman into the tale ever since you saw the name "Sherman" mentioned in John Laflin's forged Lafitte memoirs. With all this New Orleans pirate "connexions", it stands to reason that eventually Mathew "Mexico" Sherman would be mentioned along with Girard and Patterson's Canton Company since so many pirates and sea voyages are discussed as a means of travel in the 1885 Beale Papers.

Once you get Girard and Patterson back into the theory, then you connect a Bonaparte and Bonapartist activity in Bedford county in your current everyone in the United States and those with ties to America during the first 20 years of the 19th century are all part of the "real" Beale story behind the fictional Beale story that was written and copyrighted in Ward's 1885 Beale Papers as "authentic statements".

You do seem desperate to prove that there is a story behind the Beale story of the job pamphlet, even if it has nothing whatsoever to do with Beale, Morriss, or those behind the creation, copyright, publishing, advertising, or sale of the Beale Papers in the Lynchburg and surrounding area- not in Sante Fe, not in St Louis, and not in New Orleans, ONLY in Lynchburg and surrounding area.
...and you claim it is not a Virginia adventure/treasure story?

.....To Arms! To Arms! My friend, you have to quit living in the past and move to the present if you intend to continue to aggressively defend your precious and romantic "only a Virginia thing" pet theory against current presentations/evolution. Nowhere in this thread or in current theory or presentation have I even hinted to Mexico Sherman, Patterson, or whatever else you continue to bring into these threads. This is all you, not me, but in the case of "Mexico" Sherman I can certainly understand how this curious notion is so deeply embedded in your mind that you can't seem to escape it. It struck and stuck with me like that once too. The same goes for those curious memoirs, the Boneparts, Girard, that YOU once again introduce, but trust me, once you spend untold amounts or time researching all that stuff you'll get to where you can get a better grip and come to terms with most of it. If those subjects still interest you so much, as apparently they do, there are "old threads" in these forums that you can review. In the mean time let's try to stay on current topics of discussion and progress with new insights instead of living in the past, and, I wouldn't let it continue to eat away at you so much.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Is it? Virginia is just where the story ends, but before those deposits there is mention of St. Louis, Santa Fe, and that region 350 miles north of Santa Fe. So, I think the "local thing" has been mostly contributed to by those with romantic ties to Virginia as the story is anything but an entirely Virginia story, quite the opposite, indeed. Unless, of course, these folks believe that St Louis, Santa Fe, and the referenced region in Colorado were all part of Virginia during 1817-1822. All of this "Virginia romance, lore, and tunnel vision" has been the absolute biggest promotional farst since day one, the narration itself even concluding otherwise.

HA! The final ending of the Beale Expedition "story" is VIRGINIA! Who cares but YOU about the "in between junk"... KEEP IT SIMPLE!