Boy this city doesnt like MDing

[Aussie Okie]

Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

I emailed a city close by to ask about MD'ing their parks. I received an email which started with, "I'm not aware of any prohibition against metal detecting in our parks". I thought, "Well this sounds promising" then he says..."there is a state law called the 'Underground Facilities Damage Prevention Act.', so digging in the parks isn't allowable." He goes on to say, "It doesn't matter how the hole is dug or how deep, even a few inches, this would be the same for any City Park in the State." I said, my local city has no worries, he says, so if they are allowing people to dig, I would expect that at some point they will run in to problems with the law. Then he says "I see no reason that you can't detect and pick up anything you find lying on the ground, but that's all I can allow." how big of him. So, a kid going to the park with his bucket and spade better not dig...or else big brother will get him.

 

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[bazinga]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

I emailed a city close by to ask about MD'ing their parks. I received an email which started with, "I'm not aware of any prohibition against metal detecting in our parks". I thought, "Well this sounds promising" then he says..."there is a state law called the 'Underground Facilities Damage Prevention Act.', so digging in the parks isn't allowable." He goes on to say, "It doesn't matter how the hole is dug or how deep, even a few inches, this would be the same for any City Park in the State." I said, my local city has no worries, he says, so if they are allowing people to dig, I would expect that at some point they will run in to problems with the law. Then he says "I see no reason that you can't detect and pick up anything you find lying on the ground, but that's all I can allow." how big of him. So, a kid going to the park with his bucket and spade better not dig...or else big brother will get him.

Seriously, why are you emailing to ask to detect?

Tom will hopefully chime in to further tell you why this was not very intelligent on your part.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

Aussie, if there was no rule to specifically dis-allow detecting, why did you ask, in the first place? The answer you received is quite typical: Someone asks "Is there any rules about metal detecting?" and the answer they get is something like "we would prefer you didn't" (as if they had been asking PERMISSION, and not about RULES). And when the md'r objects and asks: "But where is that written", then they start morphing other cr*p (like in your case) to apply.

I mean, I've even heard of people getting a "no" d/t things like the "no collecting" rules of parks. Now ANY sensible person knows that something like a "no collecting" rule was written so that no one goes there and harvest the sod to put in their own back-yard, or removes all the tan-bark to put in their own garden, etc.... I mean C'MON! But "since you ask", they can find strange things they say applies to you.

Quite frankly, I bet that if you'd just simply gone detecting at that city, no one would ever have paid you any mind (unless you were being some sort of nuisance). It's a clear-cut case of "No one cares ...... UNTIL you ask". And the sad part is, that that same desk-bound city clerk, the next time they see another md'r, is going to remember your earlier inquiry, and start booting others (to whom she'd probably have never given second notice to previously).

C'mon guys! sometimes we can be our own worst enemy!! If it's not specifically dis-allowed, JUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bazinga]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

Thanks Tom! You always say it better than I can!

 

[Chug And Red]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

Aussie, if there was no rule to specifically dis-allow detecting, why did you ask, in the first place? The answer you received is quite typical: Someone asks "Is there any rules about metal detecting?" and the answer they get is something like "we would prefer you didn't" (as if they had been asking PERMISSION, and not about RULES). And when the md'r objects and asks: "But where is that written", then they start morphing other cr*p (like in your case) to apply.

I mean, I've even heard of people getting a "no" d/t things like the "no collecting" rules of parks. Now ANY sensible person knows that something like a "no collecting" rule was written so that no one goes there and harvest the sod to put in their own back-yard, or removes all the tan-bark to put in their own garden, etc.... I mean C'MON! But "since you ask", they can find strange things they say applies to you.

Quite frankly, I bet that if you'd just simply gone detecting at that city, no one would ever have paid you any mind (unless you were being some sort of nuisance). It's a clear-cut case of "No one cares ...... UNTIL you ask". And the sad part is, that that same desk-bound city clerk, the next time they see another md'r, is going to remember your earlier inquiry, and start booting others (to whom she'd probably have never given second notice to previously).

C'mon guys! sometimes we can be our own worst enemy!! If it's not specifically dis-allowed, JUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom has the info!!!!

 

[Aussie Okie]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

I emailed a city close by to ask about MD'ing their parks. I received an email which started with, "I'm not aware of any prohibition against metal detecting in our parks". I thought, "Well this sounds promising" then he says..."there is a state law called the 'Underground Facilities Damage Prevention Act.', so digging in the parks isn't allowable." He goes on to say, "It doesn't matter how the hole is dug or how deep, even a few inches, this would be the same for any City Park in the State." I said, my local city has no worries, he says, so if they are allowing people to dig, I would expect that at some point they will run in to problems with the law. Then he says "I see no reason that you can't detect and pick up anything you find lying on the ground, but that's all I can allow." how big of him. So, a kid going to the park with his bucket and spade better not dig...or else big brother will get him.

Seriously, why are you emailing to ask to detect?

Tom will hopefully chime in to further tell you why this was not very intelligent on your part.

They also consider MD'ing vandalism. The guy was not a clerk but the director of Parks & Recreation.
So why did I email, because yes, I could have gone and just done it, but if I was stopped ignorance is not a defense.

 

[flintstone]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

I always like to get the OK, I hate to have to watch over my shoulder

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

Aussie-okie, you've got to ask yourself: why do they consider metal detecting "vandalism"? You have to consider the pyschological implications of your asking, and why it results in that answer, to begin with. In other words, the mere fact that you thought you had to go "ask", merely implies, that something is inherently wrong or damaging, that you had to ask, to begin with. Else why would you have thought you needed to ask? I mean, would you have asked to fly a frisbee? Stand on your head? etc... So with this implication in their mind, they're naturally going to search their heads for some possibly wrong. Ie.: "address your pressing issue".

Sure, whether it was a clerk, the director, or the mayor himself, the fact remains: often-times no one cares ..... until you ask. And then sure: they can dream up lots of reasons to say no. Just as they could if you asked if you could stand on your head.

As for the "ignorance of the law being no excuse": If there is no law forbidding metal detecting, what law are you breaking?? And no, I do not consider the disturbance/destruction clauses to apply to us. Because if YOU know you'll leave no trace of your presence, then so be it. Sure a busy-body can come along and try to "tell you otherwise". So what? If you look long enough and hard enough for sanctions, you're not going to find it. And if you do get a "yes" from a public place, it merely means that you did not ask with the right set of mental images for them to consider. Ie.: be sure to mention key words like "holes" "dig" "city treasures" "ARPA" "electronic emissions" etc... and see how fast your "yes" gets turned to a "no". Yes we're in an odd hobby that draws the eye of the curious, but believe me: 99% of the time, no one cares less. If you base your attention on that 1% "what if" factor, then you have chosen the wrong hobby.

As for the "ask" factor, here's something I penned that further expands on that psychology:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,249049.0.html

 

[Aussie Okie]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

In other words, the mere fact that you thought you had to go "ask", merely implies, that something is inherently wrong or damaging, that you had to ask, to begin with. Else why would you have thought you needed to ask?

No, I don't consider what I do wrong or damaging, I would consider myself a 'model' MDer.
But what I think doesn't matter. Hey, I live in Oklahoma, say no more!

If there is no law forbidding metal detecting, what law are you breaking??

Here's the problem, often to 'find' the law you need to ask. Some towns don't have a web site or post signs but that doesn't mean anything goes.


I totally agree with you that asking gets the wheels turning in their heads and all they see is damage and litigation.
I am at a slight disadvantage coming from another county, I guess if I had have been born here I might not give it (permission) a second thought. Plus, I am a Permanent Resident (for life), so any conviction can harm my status.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

Aussie, you say:

"Here's the problem, often to 'find' the law you need to ask. Some towns don't have a web site or post signs"

If there's no website, and no sign, you still have not exhuasted your options to find actual written code: In any municipality, no matter how small, there is going to be municipal code and charter. If you go to city hall or police dept, this code is usually set out on the front desk, for anyone to look through. It is public information, so it simply has to be posted or available, somewhere, for public viewing. Even if you have to ask for it, so be it: They will bring it out to view. But as I say, it's usually there, in binder form, on most any city halls front desk, or police dept. lobby, etc.... You need not even tell them what you are looking for. Just go to the parks & rec. pages, and read down their list of rules. If it is silent on the subject of metal detecting, then so be it.

The same is true for un-incooporated towns/cities, that are not incoorporated: This simply means they are under county domain. And the same would hold true: even if the county does not have a website with their rules/laws, they too invariably have a county-seat office somewhere, where any county rules, somewhere, must be available for public viewing.

If you HAD to ask, I have heard it said that one way to avoid this "decision of whims" responses from city personell, is to ask the question in a much more direct way. Ie.: instead of asking "can I metal detect?" (which merely puts them in a position of imagining you as a geek with a shovel), you would ask in this way: "Are there any laws here prohibiting the use of metal detectors?". The latter way of asking would SEEM to put the burden of proof on them, eh? Like, instead of asking for permission, you are asking if there are any laws/rules. This would seem to put the burden on them to produce such a written rule, eh? But this can back-fire: I have heard of persons thinking they were being careful to ask with this careful wording, only to be told something like "we would prefer you didn't", (as if they'd been asking permission all along). And if the md'r objects and says "but where is that written??", he risks getting a law written just to address his pressing issue. Or you may get an answer like "nothing prohiting it, as long as you don't dig". Notice the question NEVER mentions digging or holes, right? But notice the clerk just makes the knee-jerk jump to that. Why? Becuase, as I said, the mere fact that you are standing their asking, just pre-assumes that something is so inherently wrong, that you had to ask. And then they're inclined to imagine all the possibilities, even though they may never have given the matter a second thought, if they'd just been passing you by.

Aussie, I can give you example after example of places that were and are routinely detected, and no one ever cared. But then well-intentioned persons take it upon themselves to "ask", and WHAM: all of the sudden they get no's like yours. See the psychology at work there? If you doubt me, just try me, and I'll type out several such incidents.

Flinstone: I can understand your comment, because it's true, a lot of folks don't like that encounter with the 1% of persons who are busy-bodies. Sure. It's bound to happen if you hunt long enough and hard enough enough places. Heck it will happen even if you have glaring "yes's", where someone else comes along .... doesn't like it ... calls city hall ..... and gets your yes turned to a no. To that I say that, since we are in an admittedly odd hobby, it's sort of like nose picking. If you just do it discreetly, no one cares or pays attention. So it's the same for us: Don't go waltzing out in the middle of that park's worker shift day, or when their having an archaeological convention or whatever. Naturally you go at off hours to avoid busy bodies. I am never in the middle of a retreival when lookie-lous are around.

Because if you think of it, you will NEVER get a yes, in any park, school, etc... at any level of govt, ever, anywhere, taken to its logical conclusion. Because there's not a single park anywhere that doesn't have some sort of "destruction" or "vandalism" clause ANYWHERE in the USA. So if you think of your hobby as destructive and vandalism (ie.: there mere definition of metal detecting), then you've lost the battle already. That's why I say: if YOU know you're going to leave no trace when you're done, then I do not consider it vandalism or destruction, nor will I allow a bored desk-bound bureaucrat to make that assessment for me.

 

[RGINN]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

I'm with Tom. One thing, most of the lower level public employees operate on the 1% 'what if' level. And quite a few on up the ladder also. Somebody got sued somewhere sometime, so they err on the side of caution. And a lot of them can't make a decision for themselves. (How many times a day do I hear 'We need management to come to'...wherever in the store.) Many of them aren't empowered to make a decision for themselves anymore, either. If you can't find a specific ordinance or law against it, I would suppose it's legal. I don't think (and hope not) that you would be a vandal, but might leave the place better than you found it. I'm from Oklahoma and understand what you're saying on that point. Lay on the accent heavy and we'll all be amazed and start asking you if you knew the Beatles and if it really is that foggy in London all the time. (I hope you get that joke) Good huntin!

 

[George (MN)]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

I usually don't ask unless there's a sign suggesting it might not be allowed.

Every place has laws that were in place before metal detectors were invented, prohibiting property destruction. I just checked the dictionary right now and under vandalism it said "willful or malicious *destruction*"(emphasis mine). Destroy=ruin def: " to harm irreparably".

I usually just use a screwdriver to pry coins out of the ground. Unless ground is extremely dry, it can be done without breaking up the grass. Nobody gets scared if no knife & most know small tool=damage unlikely.

Call before you dig laws are everywhere. This is in place to protect against power outages and the related repair costs when an area is machine dug/bulldozed. It's unlikely they buried wires just a few inches deep and my screwdriver couldn't cut them, I'm sure. HH, George (MN)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

George, I heard of a fellow ....... who ...... once again as these threads go, thought he should "ask" if he can metal detect for a city park. He got a confused desk clerk (like, she'd never given this thought before) who looked long and hard, and could find nothing prohibiting it. So she ventured a "I guess it's ok" type of answer. To that, the excited md'r proudly announced "Thankyou. And I'll be sure to leave no trace of my presence, cover my holes, etc...". (I guess he thought he was being a real winner with that line, eh?) Upon hearing the word "holes", the desk-clerk quickly said "holes?? wait right here, let me check something else". She excused herself from the front desk, and the md'r could see her poking her head into various other office doors down the hall. She returns to the front desk and tells the man "I'm going to have to tell you no, because if you 'dig', you have to call first the underground utilities Co.". As she was telling him this, she was handing him a brochure from the utility co. with the "Call Before You Dig" admonition printed on the leaflet.

The md'r immediately realized such "digging" that the utilities were/are talking about, is for pipes & underground utilities (ie.: more of an admonition for bulldozers and heavy equipment). So he tries to correct the lady by telling her "but mam, I'm only going down a few inches. That pamphlet couldn't possibly have anything to do with metal detectors". The lady takes another look at the pamphlet, flips through the pages, and returns it to the man saying "It doesn't say HOW deep, it just says all digging. So we're still going to have to tell you no".

The man left more confused than ever. Moral of the story? Once again: "Sometimes no one cares .... UNTIL you ask"

 

[allen]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

I work for our parks and recreation (FAC) department
and guess what, they wont allow no one to detect, not
even their loyal workers.
Its always better to ask and know before just going and
doing it.
You risk the chance of been arrested, going to jail and also
been fined.
Always get permission !!!!

 

[Deepdiger60]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

Welcome to the club 90% of land out here has been designated HISTORIC LAND ! and metal detector,s are not welcome the land i pay taxes to live on, all i have to say is Man makes Mother Nature takes Dd60

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

Allen, you say:

"You risk the chance of been arrested, going to jail and also been fined."

Can you please cite for us any such incident, of someone getting "arrested" with "fines" and "going to jail" for metal detecting an innocuous park, where no such rule or prohibitions exist? We're not talking night-sneaking obvious historic monuments, here, so please cite for me such an incident in a run-of-the-mill park. I would be very interested in hearing about it.

 

[allen]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

Come to my hometown of Shelbyville, ky and go to any park that is ran
by the city and get caught detecting, you will see what im talking about.
I will ask the rangers who patrol the parks to see who and when the last
person was they personally arrested then I will get back to you.
Always ask permission before detecting !!!!!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

Again, I ask you: Please cite for us a single incident of anyone getting "arrested" "fines" and/or "jail" for hunting run-of-the-mill non-posted no-written-rule park. Odds are, you can't. Yet despite this, for some reason, this fear keeps getting posted on threads of this sort. Yet when you ask people for examples, it grows strangely silent.

Allen, does the city of Shelbyville has an actual rule on their books? If so, then perhaps someone can be in trouble. But even then, I bet it would need to be posted somewhere. No: you can not be in trouble for doing something that is not against a rule. And no, I do not consider md'ing to fall under "damage" or "destruction" or "vandalism" clauses, if we/you/I intend to leave no trace of our presence.

I have seen MANY times where parks or schools can be detected till you're blue in the face, and no one cares. Yup, janitors, gardeners, passerbys, etc... But oddly, someone takes it upon themselves to "ask", and they get a "no"? And now you say "they can be arrested"? I say no, this isn't true, unless it's an actual rule. The sad part is, you are basically GETTING a rule written (or morphed, clarified, expanded, etc...) because you're asking. And then sure: once that same person you asked sees you, or another person, out there detecting, guess what's gonna happen? They're gonna remember the earlier inquiry, and start booting others! (to whom they may never have paid second mind to had you not asked). Don't you see Allen??

As for you being a park worker, and not being able to hunt your own parks, let me guess why: because you asked, right? One time, I was hunting a county park, that had been detected since time immortal. A county worker came up in shock, and asked "how can you do this? I work for the county, and asked if I can detect, and they said no". Who knows? Perhaps he said "can I dig in the park?" or other such silly wording to ellicit the obvious "no" answer. But the point is, even for workers (as long as you have a superior above you), the easy answer for any superior, is "no", even though perhaps that superior never would have given the matter thought. The mere fact that you're asking, as I say, presumes something is wrong. Then of course what do you THINK your superior's answer is going to be?

 

[allen]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

As for you being a park worker, and not being able to hunt your own parks, let me guess why: because you asked, right?
No I didnt ask, one of the rangers was writing a report up and I asked him what it was about and he told me that he had just cited two men for metal detecting !
I asked if I was allowed and he said no one is !!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Boy this city doesn't like MD'ing

well then, there must be an actual existing rule there. But if there is none, then no: you do not need to ask "can I metal detect?". No more so than you might ask "can I fly a frisbee?" or any other non-prohibited activity.