Bullet found in Lake? I know bullets, but never seen one of these

[Deerhunter24]

My friend found this bullet while water beepin in an inland lake in SE Michigan. Any one have any idea how old this type of bullet is?

This bullet is 1.25 or 1 1/4 inches long. It is 7/16 inches wide. Looks like a bullet for a muzzleloader, but is twice as long as any I have ever seen. Must be a 600 or 700 grain bullet at least. Appears to have rifling grooves in the bullet. That would make me think that it may not be that old, but I have no idea.

Any takers?

 

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[goldther]

HI;
A manufacturer named brenneke made a shotgun slug in the late 1800s,it was a rifled slug and the rifling looks a lot like what you have but I don't think it was as long as yours. Perhaps another shotgun ammo maker made your slug.HH,Bob

 

[junkdigger]

That looks just like the standard bullet for the .45-70 Springfield trapdoor rifle. Should weigh 500 grains.A lighter bullet had been used in the earlier trapdoors,but the 500 grain bullet was an improvement for longer range. Military used them through the Spanish American war,and civilians hunted with them too.I love to find old bullets! But then,I find lots more bullets than old coins around here.

 

[DigEmAll]

Dang it Junkdigger... you're gonna hafta start sleeping in so that I get a change to get home from work and answer.

Personally, I think Junkdigger is WRONG!!!!

That looks just like the standard bullet for the .45-70 Springfield trapdoor rifle. Should weigh 500 grains. A lighter bullet had been used in the earlier trapdoors, but the 500 grain bullet was an improvement for longer range. Military used them through the Spanish American war, and civilians hunted with them too.

Least that's what I think it is....

 

[Prairie Prowler]

Possibly a .410 rifled slug ; definately shot into the water as it isnt disfigured much!

 

[nhbenz]

I'm gonna' have to agree with DigEmAll. Junk digger, I think you were way off on this one. I seriously don't even know where you came up with that. (nice ID JD!)

 

[britgirl]

the bullet could be fairly old, but also common. the bullet was fired from a casing, I agree with the comment earlier that it could be a 45-70, but there are many casing that use that size, 45-90, 45-110, even a .458, there are many bullets in the 45 to 50 cal. range. a half inch is a .50 cal. 7/16 would be in the 45 cal. area. 1.25 inches long would be a heavy bullet, 500-600 grains is very reasonable. the grooves on it are to help seal the gas and the lubricant was put into these grooves also. these lead cast bullets were used in the mid 1800s to today. I load this type in my springfield trapdoor. still, your out there finding stuff, ain't it fun.

 

[hasbeen]

Without accurate measurements ,it is difficult to identify the caliber of a bullet. Most auto parts stores have a set of calipers and will measure it for you.While accurate measurements will determind the caliber of the bullet ,they will not tell you which case was used.

If it was fired from a Trapdoor rifle ,it should have 3 rifling groove marks on it.

hasbeen

 

[stoney56]

I'd also say what junkdigger said. Although it doesn't necessarily mean it's old as Lyman makes a # of bullet molds to recreate the dimensions and look of an older bullet. A reloading manual will show the profile and dimensions also. JMO

 

[junkdigger]

Deerhunter,I've hunted with the .45-70 cartridge,and cast and loaded many of these 500 grain bullets. The grease grooves are for grease,not gas seals.The grease is to minimize leading and powder fouling in the bore. The diameter of your bullet should measure .458-.461". The length should be 1.30-1.32".

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

diving doc Just a thought, the longitudinal grooves are from rifling. the horizontal rings at the base are where lubricant would have been to seal the cartidge and bullet joint and to aid in preventing fouling on firing. I would assume that this bullet comes from the black powder era as my modern smokeless bullets in .45-.70 do not have these. Just a thought, if it helps.
Doc
***********
HIO DOC: Que for starters, it is .45 ca., 500 grain, fired from a black powder rifle, since the rifling engraved/embossed upon the projectile is for black powder, wide for soft lead and a slow rate of turn for a vel. of appox 1200- 1400 fps..

Til Eulenspiegle de La Mancha

 

[offcoursetoo]

Lead bullets are made and loaded even in todays time, there are also many bullets from the .45 to .50 cal. family. I agree that the bullet would need to have calipers put on it and then we all would come a lot closer to indentifiying it. Leads bullets like this are generally fired slower than the jacketed bullets. This bullet could have had a gas check on the back of it that would have allowed it to be pushed hotter. and I agree with most of the opinions here. I still say it could be from the mid 1800s' up to todays era within reason. the rifling on it shows it went down the barrel. even though it did not deform at all thru it's flight. all kinds of circustances would have allow this. Larger cal. were more popular before all these jacketed bullets and high velocities. it's still a fun find. "keep looking where you're steppin"

 

[whispers]

My girlfriend found one exactly like it.3 weeks back(her first bullet)We were in an area that was hunted alot back in the 1920's as I was a rich persons resort where city folk came up from the city and .prior to that I was an area where copper miners traveled thru.I hope you get an I'd for both of us.I will post pic soon although her bullet has some cuts in it I'm sure youll agree they are the same whatever cal.they are.Thanks

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi BritlanderGal, Doc and the rest: the 45 came in various configurations and models of rifles. Comparing the rifling will tell you which type and model of rifle it came out of. You did an extremely good job of id'ng it.

Britlander Gal you surprise me, not too many gals have your quality/knowledge of information. I did expect it from Doc of course.

JD, Some, Off, Has, Stonet, Nh, gold, kid. etc. etc nice work gentlemen.

I would like to add a few observations, Gas checks are only used in modern lead projectiles for hotter burning, higher vel powders, say 1400 fps up. They are used in the higher vel pistol loads on up..

The Brenneke slug had longitudinal multi grooves embossed/swaged upon it in an aborted attempt to use them for increased stability and accuracy through resistance from the air causing them to have a slight gyroscopic action, but in actual use were ineffective for this. Pus they also had a semi-wadcuter nose shape, They had a felt wad attached to the base. They were the most accurate of the shotgun slugs and were used extensively for hunting big, dangerous, light skinned animals -lion, tiger. Leopard etc.. at close range.

The normal shotgun slug also came with the groves in some models, but were essentially just a hollow slug, similar to a cup. They relied upon the centre of weight/mass being in the nose for accuracy

Gal, Guys I have a mint 50 70 Trapdoor Springfield with an 1863 conversion lock, with all matching No's. which i love to shoot with the 450 Gr projectile, fun fun, you would enjoy it also, even at only 1200 fps heheh.

Till Eulespeigle

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

diving doc
I envy your rifle. Will you post a picture of yours? Here's mine.
Doc
*****************

HI DOC, unfortunately it is in Tucson, "any" firearm down here is a great big no no, worth 20 - 30 years in the Mexican Hilton. However, when I go there I will send a photo.

Your Marlin would be my weapon of choice for close in work on dangerous game, say Alaskan bush country. The old 45 70 is vastly underrated by todays hi vel fiends, heeh. Big bore at low to medium velocities is superior to the hi vel small-med cal. in pure stopping power.

At present I have my .375 for that, but believe that the 45 70 is Superior under 150 meters. for max efficiency the 375 has to be at 2400-2500 fps, lose too much meat at this vel. Over 2600 it seems to lose stopping power for some reason??

Till Eulenspiegle de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hio Doc first I ask forgivenes from the others in this lead for straying off of the subject for a bit, but it may help to establish a form of creditability to our statments.

Doc, While in the Border Patrol I used the .357 S&W with a 4" barrel and Keith long range front sights with handloads of 14.5 grains of 2400 with a 156 grain Kieth semiwadcuter pojectile for 1450 fps. it was extremely effective and superbly accurate. I could hit a man sized target up to 500 meters off hand with it. This is what I used to beat the Mexican National pistol champion heheh.

This is what I also carried while exploring the "then" unknown Barrancas and Jungles down here. Later I used a .22 HiStandard GE for small game.

Many took issue with me over chosing the .357 over say a 44 magnum, . but when you have to carry all of your ammo for months with you, you compromse, it never failed me, still here heehe

For the rooms information, no-one shoots like they do in the tv or movies. You only shoot when you have a target or you are soon out of ammunition and may end up under a pile of rocks. an unknown. Most of all, you never hold a pistol sideways for many reasons. sheehs

Incidentally interior and exterior ballistics were my advocation and interest at that time.

Till Eulensppiegle de La Mancha

p.s. Yes, banditry still exists as in th old west in the high and back country. In this em of a news clipping ,it tells of 70 federal soldier fighting with a band of bandits up at TAYOPA shehs

 

[offcoursetoo]

Here is a bullet very similar to your bullet. it is from a 460 weatherby, which I own. see what you think, I have a 45-70 govt. also. theres not enough difference to speak of, originally, you were wanting to know about the age or to phrase it better, How old the bullet is, as I said earlier, it could be fairly old, late 1800's all the way up to today. of course it is not new, it has aged and weathered as lead does. but this size and shape is not that rare. because you found it, it's worth that to you, finding stuff is fun. all the tech info on bullets that I and others have offered is good, each has their opinions and thats what this site is for.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Off course : HI just what in the world do you use that Weatherby with factory ammo for? It is a magnificient Retina detacher - but fun to shoot. heheh


Tll Eulenspiegle de La Mancha

 

[offcoursetoo]

Realde, the 460 is fun to shoot, I just don't shoot it a lot. I shoot the 45-70 govt. more. I don't hunt with either. I hunt with a .44 mag rifle I've had since 1972. I have a custom made .308 I hunt a little with, it's a nail driver at 150 yds. it's weighted, balanced, adjustable competition trigger, floated barrel, my 22-250 is for reaching on out. my 47-70 has only 4 digit serial number, rare for me anyway. I shoot some elmer keith stuff. but nothing I have shoots better than my mod.29 smith. I have had a 1911 govt. of one brand or another since birth, I was given that in place of a baby rattler.

 

[offcoursetoo]

Doc, the .44 smith is fun and very accurate with .44 specials. the 1911 would be my up close and personal choice, it's just that good, too easy to drop a empty, in with a full and resume. good control.

I have a Marlin 1895 in very good condition, similar to yours. but the long full version, as I said, it has a 4 digit serial no. and I have a springfield trapdoor, looks like 1873 or 1878 stamped in the stock. I load it weak.

I say "floated" when the barrel is not touching anything. the barrel is free of anything that might affect it due to weather, humidity and can viberate and flex on it's on, I believe it cools better also.