coin controversy

[jerseyben]

I belong to a coin website and something was posted recently that I wanted to share and get a non-numismatic viewpoint on:

An ebay seller was identified as selling a 1799 Draped Bust Silver Dollar. The coin was clearly pictured showing XF condition details. The simple ebay listing presented facts about the coin in a brief description and nothing more. The coin was listed raw with no opinion of grade being given (ebay does not allow sellers to even mention grade if it is not IAW their policy with pcgs, ngc, or anacs slabs).

The coin was bid up to over $5000, which is around the book value for an XF coin.

Someone on the coin website somehow managed to find the exact same coin where it was recently sold in a heritage auction. It turns out that the same coin was sold slabbed by PCGS as XF-details, "smoothed" (which means the coin was manipulated to remove imperfections). The seller cracked out the coin from its holder and listed it on ebay in its raw form with no mention of its previous grade opinion given by PCGS.

I would like to hear YOUR opinions on this scenario. Did the seller do anything wrong?

I will continue the story to explain further the controversy as it relates to the coin website. I just want to get some initial reactions and opinions first.

 

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[Iron Patch]

The seller did nothing wrong because there was no difference in his auction compared to tens of thousands of others. (meaning he did not break any rules) Once the buyer receives the coin if he determines there is an issue that wasn't stated in listing he would be justified in filing a not as described claim.

Sure you can question his ethetics, but it's ebay and buyer beware.... and remember, this was not a graded coin and everyone knew this.

 

[Mackaydon]

What is Ebay's policy towards sellers who put up for sale or auction items that the seller knows have been tampered with yet fails to disclose that fact? Are not buyers free to ask questions of sellers regarding the offered item? Questions like: Has the product been tampered with or encapsulated in the past? If so, please, explain. Did the seller offer to buy the product back within a certain time if the product was not acceptable? Did the buyer insist on a money back guarantee? Then there's 'caveat emptor'.........Then there's the ethical sin of omission' Many aspects to your situation. To me, each of the three parties (Ebay, the Seller and the Buyer) each contributed to the result.
Don.......

 

[smokeythecat]

"Caveat emptor" probably applies. I would not want to buy anything for $5k without seeing it first.

 

[Iron Patch]

What is Ebay's policy towards sellers who put up for sale or auction items that the seller knows have been tampered with yet fails to disclose that fact? Are not buyers free to ask questions of sellers regarding the offered item? Questions like: Has the product been tampered with or encapsulated in the past? If so, please, explain. Did the seller offer to buy the product back within a certain time if the product was not acceptable? Did the buyer insist on a money back guarantee? Then there's 'caveat emptor'.........Then there's the ethical sin of omission' Many aspects to your situation. To me, each of the three parties (Ebay, the Seller and the Buyer) each contributed to the result.
Don.......

I have no idea what you would find for ebay guidelines if you dig deep enough, but whatever it says makes no difference because we have to deal with the reality of how things work. That is why there is such a thing as a paypal claim, which is basically defense for a buyer being taken. As for questions, yes, you can ask anything you want.

 

[Iron Patch]

Even though I will say the same rules apply for everyone, it can be frustrating when sellers put something on where they know there is an issue, because best case scenario they sell it, and worst case it just gets returned and they can list again. Twice I've had to file paypal claims, or at least let the seller know that's what would be happening if I wasn't able to send the items back. The first thing was two coins... I paid about $700 for them, and one was cleaned, the other had a big bend, and neither showed any sign of this in the listing. The other item was an 18th century snuff box that I paid maybe a $170 for. It looked perfect in the picture, but when I received it the thing was polished/scratched and absolutely brutal. I first thought the cleaning had to have happened after the sale, but when I tried to mimic the pic I realized if I carefully took the shot on a certain angle I could get a pic that made it look just as good as the one he had, and no signs of the problems at all. I was really ticked off for the 2nd one because being a larger item I can not send it back registered letter, and to get tracking it would cost me over $50... and that doesn't even have a signature which I would need if there was a problem. The other option is cheap, a small packet which has a max. $100 insurance, but not tracking or signature. So this seller seeing what he could get away with created a major hassle for me, and no right answer of what to do. Luckily this guy did take his ebay business serious at least to some degree because it was resolved with him refunding me up front and then my sending the item back the cheapest way and at his risk. So in the end it worked out that no major loss occurred, but that gives you an idea of how things work, and the crap some sellers do.... and they do it because many sales probably follow through.

 

[Rodbuster209]

The seller did nothing wrong because there was no difference in his auction compared to tens of thousands of others. (meaning he did not break any rules) Once the buyer receives the coin if he determines there is an issue that wasn't stated in listing he would be justified in filing a not as described claim.

Sure you can question his ethetics, but it's ebay and buyer beware.... and remember, this was not a graded coin and everyone knew this.

This was a graded coin so to me The seller is wrong for not disclosing this. Seems like a lot of money spent on a coin that you could not look at under a loupe or microscope before laying down your money, imho...........Scott.

 

[dejapooh]

When you sell anything, if you know something about the item that would effect the value, you have a moral obligation to the buyers to disclose what you know. When I sell on Ebay, if I mislead a buyer (which has happened on accident... I accidentally listed something with the new tag on Default, when it was used) I feel obligated to pay return postage in addition to the refund. If the item is not worth it to me, I refund the item and shipping and let them keep it (that happened to a bobble head doll I sold once).

 

[trdhrdr007]

The item in question had an issue that would greatly affect value if it was disclosed. The seller not only chose not to disclose the issue, they went the extra mile to hide it. IMO it's about the same as the questionable practices some used car dealers employ.

As an intermediate level coin collector I'm familiar with this type situation. There are sellers that specialize in cracking coins out of problem slabs & selling the coins raw. Their justification is that a grade is subjective & professional graders are not 100% correct. Their hope is that the purchaser will not have sufficient knowledge/experience to recognize the issue. The end result is that less than professional buyers will get burned if/when they resell. It's not a business model I would be comfortable endorsing.

 

[Iron Patch]

The item in question had an issue that would greatly affect value if it was disclosed. The seller not only chose not to disclose the issue, they went the extra mile to hide it. IMO it's about the same as the questionable practices some used car dealers employ.

As an intermediate level coin collector I'm familiar with this type situation. There are sellers that specialize in cracking coins out of problem slabs & selling the coins raw. Their justification is that a grade is subjective & professional graders are not 100% correct. Their hope is that the purchaser will not have sufficient knowledge/experience to recognize the issue. The end result is that less than professional buyers will get burned if/when they resell. It's not a business model I would be comfortable endorsing.

Can't argue with any of that and in a way this thread a good lesson, because just like an inexperienced buyer might not recognize an altered coin, it's every bit as likely an inexperienced seller could sell a coin in the same condition and not know. And because sellers, thousands of them, sell items every day that aren't accurately described, you can't really say different rules apply just because a plastic case was involved. (real rules not ethical ones) So as always with ebay you have to be sure, but I will admit this one probably would be extremely difficult to pick up on. I wonder if anyone asked about the coin's condition, and if they were given an answer.

 

[diggummup]

Anybody that would spend 5k on a raw coin off ebay, needs their head examined or they have too much money, one or the other. Those are my thoughts.

 

[trdhrdr007]

Anybody that would spend 5k on a raw coin off ebay, needs their head examined or they have too much money, one or the other. Those are my thoughts.

I can't argue with that. The problem is there are sellers playing this game at all levels. It's possible to make enough profit to make the practice worthwhile for coins that sell for as little as $75-100 raw.

 

[GibH]

I can't argue with that. The problem is there are sellers playing this game at all levels. It's possible to make enough profit to make the practice worthwhile for coins that sell for as little as $75-100 raw.

Moral of the story, don't buy coins on ebay.

 

[Iron Patch]

I can't argue with that. The problem is there are sellers playing this game at all levels. It's possible to make enough profit to make the practice worthwhile for coins that sell for as little as $75-100 raw.

Sure, someone could play that game but anyone who wants to keep their reputation wouldn't. Plus most who buy $75-$100 coins are probably making money on most of them and not too worried about 1 out of 100 being an altered coin popped out of the plastic... and I doubt it would be anywhere near that high a %. The post saying not to buy coins off ebay... if it was so bad no one would.

 

[jerseyben]

Anybody that would spend 5k on a raw coin off ebay, needs their head examined or they have too much money, one or the other. Those are my thoughts.

My personal opinion of the issue would also echo yours. I do see that this is a delicate issue that is not so black and white but I can't help but say BUYER BEWARE.

To wrap this up: The coin website where this came from actually contacted ebay and had the person's listings removed. They claimed that while this person did nothing illegal, it was against numismatic ethics. The person's ebay account was recently removed/deleted for unknown reasons.

 

[jerseyben]

When you sell anything, if you know something about the item that would effect the value, you have a moral obligation to the buyers to disclose what you know. When I sell on Ebay, if I mislead a buyer (which has happened on accident... I accidentally listed something with the new tag on Default, when it was used) I feel obligated to pay return postage in addition to the refund. If the item is not worth it to me, I refund the item and shipping and let them keep it (that happened to a bobble head doll I sold once).

While I admire your ethics, do you go to a B&M coin shop and expect to see/hear the history of every coin you intend to purchase? The same can be said when antique shopping at a physical location.

What about at coin shows, flea markets, pawn shops?

 

[trdhrdr007]

I believe in caveat emptor, or buyer beware. That doesn't mean I think it's ok for people to deliberately try to screw someone. No doubt the buyer was an idiot......that doesn't make the seller's actions right. I said it before & I'll repeat it; I can't endorse a business model that is based on deception.

 

[Iron Patch]

My personal opinion of the issue would also echo yours. I do see that this is a delicate issue that is not so black and white but I can't help but say BUYER BEWARE.

To wrap this up: The coin website where this came from actually contacted ebay and had the person's listings removed. They claimed that while this person did nothing illegal, it was against numismatic ethics. The person's ebay account was recently removed/deleted for unknown reasons.

The problem is obviously the dollar amount involved, and ebay's concern is exactly what some posts are saying on this thread. I don't really feel sorry for the guy, but at the same time if he didn't do anything illegal, or break ebay rules, then why should he have his account canceled. That being said, I would bet a grand right now that you can find some small vague print in ebay's policies they can apply to this situation and do as they please. After all, it is their business, and they obviously feel they have a say how everyone conducts their business through the site. The seller does deserve this hassle because he was willing to put the buyers through quite a hassle with that coin, and just being hassled was the best case scenario for them.

 

[randazzo1]

I sell on ebay through multiple accounts (2 entities with two accounts each). I think it is the seller's obligation to disclose any known defects in the item. Even for "as is" auctions. That is just an opinion based on my preference clean business practices whenever possible. From the practical perspective, why take a chance on having items returned / receiving negative feedback? Two of my accounts are Top Rated, and the sell through on those accounts is about double what it is on the the two that are not top rated. It is impossible to maintain top rated status these days even when you do everything right. Why take a chance on something like this to make a "quick buck" -- unless of course you are not a regular seller (though this indiivdual appears to have been).

I agree with Iron Patche's last statement regarding the seller deserving the hassle.