Shambler
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Any chance you're now arguing for the sake of arguing?
Concession hunt
- Thread starter bugbitingme
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Any chance you're now arguing for the sake of arguing?
Tom_in_CA
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This topic is truly representative of the entire USA, not just GA. So thankyou bug-biting-me for disecting this fully, and staying on it. Sorry for if anyone is rude about this, but it does deserve an un-packing, because it does represent a deeper issue that ......when brought out to its logical conclusion, does say a bunch more .... than just GA.
Perhaps the DNR will not deny anyone the ability to hunt even in the most lucrative and old area, and archaeologically significant areas, as long as you "have permission". Then this just boggles me: why then do you have to tell them in the first place? There must be some regulatory ability on their part (ie.: to say "no", or declare a site archaeologically significant, and THEN say "no", based on what you're finding?). I mean, just the fact that you, or anyone, thinks they must alert someone upon coming or going from a place, seems like it's a form of "permission". Or at least some burdensome hoop that may as well make it like "permission" in the end. And it still pre-assumes that the local school or park you're intending to go through, even thinks you need "permission" either. I mean, they may look at you, as if you'd just asked permission to fly a frisbee? Or they may look at you and just say "no" Why? because you asked, and they perhaps have images of geeks with shovels, when in fact, perhaps they'd never have given the matter 2nd thought.
"By your premise, I could give you permission to hunt the school grounds and you could give me permission, but that would not be all of the owners giving permission. If we receive permission from the school board, then we have been given permission by all of the owners, because all of us elected them to represent us. If the school board denies permission, then all of the owners are denying permission, for the same reason"
As you can see, I recognize that there are certain perameters (rules) for public land. I give, as examples "no alcahol in the park" or "dogs on leash only", etc.... But if something is not expressly prohibited, then I consider that to be "implied consent" or "implied permission". In much the same way that you would not "ask" to fly a frisbee, or "ask" to use the swing set, etc..... So I guess that the hangup here, is whether or not state-level rules really do dictate in GA, that no one can metal detect on city or county level land, without first alerting the state, and having permission from the city or state. I'm still convinced that unless the city or county has expressly dis-allowed it, or unless you're violating some other rule ("collecting" or "damaging/defacing", etc...) then you don't need permission, to begin with.
To know whether or not GA state-level laws really can subrogate down to the county or city level, on this matter, see if the state level rules specifically say "metal detecting", in this law you are attempting to follow. Because if it just says "archaeological excavating", then no, I do not consider metal detecting to be under that umbrella. Sure, "Jennifer" may say otherwise, but what did you expect? It boils back to the same psychology: if you ask someone in authority "can I do such & such?", you can often-time get an answer, of someone more than willing to say that you must do X, Y, and Z.
Here's an example from my city: There is a hobby called "slack-lining", where kids tie a rope between 2 trees, a foot or so off the ground, and do some sort of tight-rope walking. This had gone on for years, and no one ever gave the matter thought. Until at one point, in the newspaper here, there was some flack of some kids and their parents taking issue with the city because the city no longer allowed this practice in the parks. Why? because technically, it could cause rope burn marks on the trunks of the tree (they found some arborist to say). As I read the newspaper story, it became clear to me what started all this flap: A concerned parent, wanting to make sure that what her kid was going to do with their friends in the park, was legal. So they call the city, park's dept. etc... and ask "is this ok?" Mind you, this had gone on for years, and no one cared. Well the city, bless their heart, gets this phone call, and starts looking in to it. They must pass it from department to department, to "make sure it's ok". Apparently when it reached the city arborist, he said "no". You see? A case of no one caring "till you ask". And given enough stretching, just as in this "slack-lining" case, so too can Jeniffer tell you that your actions constitute archaeology. And I have no doubt she'd insist on it, till her dying breath.
" If I did not get permission and I was questioned by law enforcement .... "
My hunch is, if you hunted around a concession stand, at any park or school in the USA, that no one would care less. I doubt you will get "questioned by law enforcement". And if you did, it would be on city or county level stuff. Ie.: are you leaving holes, or something else. I doubt highly that the average cop or sheriff would even begin to think or know about anything of the DNR's doing. Believe it or not, metal detectors are not an uncommon site at beaches, parks, schools, etc.... in the USA.
"therefore, I don't understand your charge that by my asking, everyone will have to hang up their detectors."
No, of course it will have no impact here on CA, what you do in GA. But if the same steps were taken by well-meaning people here in CA, then yes: it could have a detrimental effect. The same is true for all other states. If people went and asked enough questions in their state, they too could find levels of bureaucracy to tell them "no" (or give them ridiculous steps/hoops to walk through), where perhaps no one ever cared before. And then you basically get laws "written" (or enforced, or interpretted, or whatever) to "address your pressing issue". I can give you example after example of where this has happened. And in each case, the person asking permission, had the best of intentions.
"Imagine that you found a significant item last week and you were showing it around. Someone asks you where you found it and you said, "a field over by the old Jones homestead". Then you were told, "that belongs to my cousin, he wouldn't even let me hunt that field, when did you get permission?".
This has to do with private property, which is outside the parameters of this thread/topic.
remember, "what can happen, will happen",
There comes a point, in the hobby of metal detecting, if you really want to worry about what someone may think, or to worry about some law you *may* be afoul of, that you might as well pick a different hobby. Because as I said, in ANY of the 50 states, if you asked long enough and hard enough, you will find someone that can tell you "no" (or give you burdensome hoops to go through).
Find out how other GA hunters do it in GA. If they're hunting a park, school or public lake beach there, see if they are going through these hoops. And if not, see if anyone's ever said anything to them, as in asking them "did you alert the DNR?" I highly doubt this is a question any of them have fielded, ever. Very un-likely Jeniffer ever came along. And to be honest with you, I bet Jeniffer herself would probably never have given them a second glance either (if she'd just been driving down the road, for instance). Until now that is.
Perhaps the DNR will not deny anyone the ability to hunt even in the most lucrative and old area, and archaeologically significant areas, as long as you "have permission". Then this just boggles me: why then do you have to tell them in the first place? There must be some regulatory ability on their part (ie.: to say "no", or declare a site archaeologically significant, and THEN say "no", based on what you're finding?). I mean, just the fact that you, or anyone, thinks they must alert someone upon coming or going from a place, seems like it's a form of "permission". Or at least some burdensome hoop that may as well make it like "permission" in the end. And it still pre-assumes that the local school or park you're intending to go through, even thinks you need "permission" either. I mean, they may look at you, as if you'd just asked permission to fly a frisbee? Or they may look at you and just say "no" Why? because you asked, and they perhaps have images of geeks with shovels, when in fact, perhaps they'd never have given the matter 2nd thought.
"By your premise, I could give you permission to hunt the school grounds and you could give me permission, but that would not be all of the owners giving permission. If we receive permission from the school board, then we have been given permission by all of the owners, because all of us elected them to represent us. If the school board denies permission, then all of the owners are denying permission, for the same reason"
As you can see, I recognize that there are certain perameters (rules) for public land. I give, as examples "no alcahol in the park" or "dogs on leash only", etc.... But if something is not expressly prohibited, then I consider that to be "implied consent" or "implied permission". In much the same way that you would not "ask" to fly a frisbee, or "ask" to use the swing set, etc..... So I guess that the hangup here, is whether or not state-level rules really do dictate in GA, that no one can metal detect on city or county level land, without first alerting the state, and having permission from the city or state. I'm still convinced that unless the city or county has expressly dis-allowed it, or unless you're violating some other rule ("collecting" or "damaging/defacing", etc...) then you don't need permission, to begin with.
To know whether or not GA state-level laws really can subrogate down to the county or city level, on this matter, see if the state level rules specifically say "metal detecting", in this law you are attempting to follow. Because if it just says "archaeological excavating", then no, I do not consider metal detecting to be under that umbrella. Sure, "Jennifer" may say otherwise, but what did you expect? It boils back to the same psychology: if you ask someone in authority "can I do such & such?", you can often-time get an answer, of someone more than willing to say that you must do X, Y, and Z.
Here's an example from my city: There is a hobby called "slack-lining", where kids tie a rope between 2 trees, a foot or so off the ground, and do some sort of tight-rope walking. This had gone on for years, and no one ever gave the matter thought. Until at one point, in the newspaper here, there was some flack of some kids and their parents taking issue with the city because the city no longer allowed this practice in the parks. Why? because technically, it could cause rope burn marks on the trunks of the tree (they found some arborist to say). As I read the newspaper story, it became clear to me what started all this flap: A concerned parent, wanting to make sure that what her kid was going to do with their friends in the park, was legal. So they call the city, park's dept. etc... and ask "is this ok?" Mind you, this had gone on for years, and no one cared. Well the city, bless their heart, gets this phone call, and starts looking in to it. They must pass it from department to department, to "make sure it's ok". Apparently when it reached the city arborist, he said "no". You see? A case of no one caring "till you ask". And given enough stretching, just as in this "slack-lining" case, so too can Jeniffer tell you that your actions constitute archaeology. And I have no doubt she'd insist on it, till her dying breath.
" If I did not get permission and I was questioned by law enforcement .... "
My hunch is, if you hunted around a concession stand, at any park or school in the USA, that no one would care less. I doubt you will get "questioned by law enforcement". And if you did, it would be on city or county level stuff. Ie.: are you leaving holes, or something else. I doubt highly that the average cop or sheriff would even begin to think or know about anything of the DNR's doing. Believe it or not, metal detectors are not an uncommon site at beaches, parks, schools, etc.... in the USA.
"therefore, I don't understand your charge that by my asking, everyone will have to hang up their detectors."
No, of course it will have no impact here on CA, what you do in GA. But if the same steps were taken by well-meaning people here in CA, then yes: it could have a detrimental effect. The same is true for all other states. If people went and asked enough questions in their state, they too could find levels of bureaucracy to tell them "no" (or give them ridiculous steps/hoops to walk through), where perhaps no one ever cared before. And then you basically get laws "written" (or enforced, or interpretted, or whatever) to "address your pressing issue". I can give you example after example of where this has happened. And in each case, the person asking permission, had the best of intentions.
"Imagine that you found a significant item last week and you were showing it around. Someone asks you where you found it and you said, "a field over by the old Jones homestead". Then you were told, "that belongs to my cousin, he wouldn't even let me hunt that field, when did you get permission?".
This has to do with private property, which is outside the parameters of this thread/topic.
remember, "what can happen, will happen",
There comes a point, in the hobby of metal detecting, if you really want to worry about what someone may think, or to worry about some law you *may* be afoul of, that you might as well pick a different hobby. Because as I said, in ANY of the 50 states, if you asked long enough and hard enough, you will find someone that can tell you "no" (or give you burdensome hoops to go through).
Find out how other GA hunters do it in GA. If they're hunting a park, school or public lake beach there, see if they are going through these hoops. And if not, see if anyone's ever said anything to them, as in asking them "did you alert the DNR?" I highly doubt this is a question any of them have fielded, ever. Very un-likely Jeniffer ever came along. And to be honest with you, I bet Jeniffer herself would probably never have given them a second glance either (if she'd just been driving down the road, for instance). Until now that is.
In Florida you are suppose to have permission to hunt on school property, permission can come from the groundskeeper up to board of education. Most times if you hunt grounds that are not fenced in they will not harress you, but law states you need permission.
ARPA 1979
As used in this Act—
(1) the term “archaeological resource” means any material remains of past human life or activities which are of
archaeological interest, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this Act. Such regulations
containing such determination shall include, but not be limited to: pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon
projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves,
human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological
specimens, or any portion or piece thereof, shall not be considered archaeological resources, under the regulations
under this paragraph, unless found in an archaeological context. No item shall be treated as an archaeological
resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age.
ARPA 1979
As used in this Act—
(1) the term “archaeological resource” means any material remains of past human life or activities which are of
archaeological interest, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this Act. Such regulations
containing such determination shall include, but not be limited to: pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon
projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves,
human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological
specimens, or any portion or piece thereof, shall not be considered archaeological resources, under the regulations
under this paragraph, unless found in an archaeological context. No item shall be treated as an archaeological
resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age.
Tom_in_CA
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treasure-hunter, that is the federal level definition of archaological artifact. An individual state might have a different definition, or they may just adapt the federal level ARPA for their own. ARPA also specifically exempts "coins and bullets" too, if I'm not mistaken 
In any case, your text shows 100 yrs. old. Assuming GA adopts this same definition, then again I ask: "how good is your math", and "does anyone stand over you with a calculator?"
In any case, your text shows 100 yrs. old. Assuming GA adopts this same definition, then again I ask: "how good is your math", and "does anyone stand over you with a calculator?"
Tom_in_CA said:
Treasure_Hunter said:Tom_in_CA said:
NO
Again NO, my math is bad and I do not carry a calculator with me either, too heavy
piggman1
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I think what this boils down to is our profession or hobby is constantly under fire. Every day someone is looking for some reason to it outlaw altogether. The more waves you create, the more ammo they put in their belts. Just do it...knowing the law, and what it actually applies to keeps things in a simi balance. Either way, they push, or you push going beyond written law, we loose.
bugbitingme
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Thread Owner
piggman1 said:
piggman1
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If th sign says it, then get the prmissision from the school. That is all you have to do. Leave the government out of it. What has the government ever stuck their finger in that didn't get more screwed up than it was before? The school is all you need. Forget the archeology end of it.
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