Copper/Bronze Point?

[Erik in NJ]

Hi, have not been on the forum in a while as I have not had time to detect. Found this item in Devon County in England. Seems to have had a tang and point is broken off due to an impact which bent it into a very shallow S shape.

Presently the item is approx 1" long, 1/4" at wide end, and 3/16" thick tapering to quite thin.

Thanks for any help and nice to be back on the forum!

 

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[CRUSADER]

I disagree. The soil in your area is quite different and those bits are not points. This is Dartmoor and there's a Bronze Age fort not far away. Honestly I'm a bit surprised that someone with your tenure in the field would suggest it was a log splitter. I'll wait for some experts to weigh in. The local historian (published) said Bronze Age. It is definitely not brass.

You keep stating ''there's a Bronze Age fort not far away''. This is irrelevant when IDing an object. Is the coke can Bronze Age as well?

Archaeological context of undisturbed layers is all that matters when IDing the relative age of an associated object.

 

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[CRUSADER]

I stated its 'looks brassy' which it does in the picture. Even if it is bronze, it makes no difference to its relevant age, which I put in the 200-400 year old bracket.


What's the name of your 'local historian' ? Is he a small finds identification expert? Did he classify bronze age material for the museums? Or just write a book on local History?

 

[CRUSADER]

When you get the PAS reference number which your require to do as best practice before you apply for an Export Licence, you can clear this one up for us all by supplying the link.
(eager to learn)

 

[Silver Searcher]

At that size I think the only guess I could make is to what it is, is perhaps a unfinished bronze arrow point as for the red tinge that's just the copper showing through, bronze is copper alloy, and it looks like the mix is a bit off...strange one that, and a tricky call.

SS

 

[CRUSADER]

At that size I think the only guess I could make is to what it is, is perhaps a unfinished bronze arrow point as for the red tinge that's just the copper showing through, bronze is copper alloy, and it looks like the mix is a bit off...strange one that, and a tricky call.

SS

Yes, we all know the Archies call everything copper-alloy, saves all the arguments...lol

If bronze, your right the mix is way off. In fact the colour is closer to some of the Viking period mixes we see. But less reddish.

You know Bronze Age stuff well, would you agree, its too angular & not very cast looking?

I'm starting to think it maybe some handmade blacksmiths tool?

 

[Silver Searcher]

Yes, we all know the Archies call everything copper-alloy, saves all the arguments...lol

If bronze, your right the mix is way off. In fact the colour is closer to some of the Viking period mixes we see. But less reddish.

You know Bronze Age stuff well, would you agree, its too angular & not very cast looking?

I'm starting to think it maybe some handmade blacksmiths tool?

The size confuses me? what ever it is it's not very big and it doesn't look completely finished. It doesn't look cast as you say, that's why I mentioned arrowhead, I think some were hand forged as well as cast.

SS

 

[CRUSADER]

The size confuses me? what ever it is it's not very big and it doesn't look completely finished. It doesn't look cast as you say, that's why I mentioned arrowhead, I think some were hand forged as well as cast.

SS

I know, that's why I jumped in without reading because I assumed it was much bigger. I agreed looks hand forged, & I think you might be on to something when you say unfinished. Odd one...

Last guess a hand forged rustic mini door wedge....lol

 

[CRUSADER]

Bugger, now I joked about door wedge...lead my mind to...(notice the bent, caused by some considerable force)

Some-kind of wedge made to wedge into a gap on a broken machine. The US call them bush fixes.

 

[Erik in NJ]

C'mon Crusader, you are REALLY reaching now. It was found in the valley right next to a Celtic Bronze Age fort right near the only water source in the valley. The bronze hand wrought ring I posted, may indeed be Celtic ring money as well. It's much older than you are suggesting. I'm a bit surprised at your replies to be honest.

 

[Erik in NJ]

You keep stating ''there's a Bronze Age fort not far away''. This is irrelevant when IDing an object. Is the coke can Bronze Age as well?

Archaeological context of undisturbed layers is all that matters when IDing the relative age of an associated object.

Don't need to be schooled by you as most of your and your dad's find are posted with no provenance at all. You guesses are are worst case pessimistic from an area quite far from the outskirts of London. So I would guess you have little to no experience in Dartmoor. Perhaps you should post publically you and your Dad's first names and general location as opposed to simply a "handle" in all caps.

 

[CRUSADER]

Don't need to be schooled by you as most of your and your dad's find are posted with no provenance at all. You guesses are are worst case pessimistic from an area quite far from the outskirts of London. So I would guess you have little to no experience in Dartmoor. Perhaps you should post publically you and your Dad's first names and general location as opposed to simply a "handle" in all caps.

Do you honestly believe we would be stupid enough to tell you where we hunt, after spending years of researching & hunting to find sites that not even some of the Archies know about. (Bearing in mind they have helped us find many as well, if the land-owners allow we share back)
Provenance is meaningless unless its from a recorded archaeological layer. Once again finding it in Stone Hedge is meaningless if the object is junk.
All our objects have been moved around in plough soil, so have less value to the Archaeological world. But we still GPS them all & they still build a good picture.

 

[CRUSADER]

C'mon Crusader, you are REALLY reaching now. It was found in the valley right next to a Celtic Bronze Age fort right near the only water source in the valley. The bronze hand wrought ring I posted, may indeed be Celtic ring money as well. It's much older than you are suggesting. I'm a bit surprised at your replies to be honest.

Not seen this post. But if its what we call a ring-things, then they are common. Its one of the biggest dispelled myths on the internet.

However, if it is indeed an extremely rare Iron Age Ring Money, then you better hand it in to the FLO immediately for recording. Because if you take it out the Country with no Export License then your breaking the Law.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Yes, well I guess a first name and county would give it all away I have just noticed that you generally tend to says other's finds are much younger than they typically are. Like pronouncing my item a log splitter or simple modern wedge, where as your Bronze Age finds look like common items that many of us dig on a regular basis. Give me a break!

I will continue to research it with local authorities on Bronze Age finds made in Dartmoor, but thanks for you WAGs.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Not seen this post. But if its what we call a ring-things, then they are common. Its one of the biggest dispelled myths on the internet.

However, if it is indeed an extremely rare Iron Age Ring Money, then you better hand it in to the FLO immediately for recording. Because if you take it out the Country with no Export License then your breaking the Law.

How about this--you post the receipts of museum inspection for all the things you've found that are older than 200 years (and your Dad's) and I'll post the FLO paperwork.

 

[CRUSADER]

How about this--you post the receipts of museum inspection for all the things you've found that are older than 200 years (and your Dad's) and I'll post the FLO paperwork.

This just shows you have no clue about our Laws. Its 300 years + & only includes items that contain 10% or more silver or gold content.(plus a few exceptions like bronze age hoards etc) And yes we have ALL the reports for those items, everyone thanks.
For your info, because you clearly need it, contact this person before you get yourself in trouble;

Danielle WoottonFinds Liaison Officer - Devon
Department of Archaeology, College of Humanities, University of Exeter Laver Building, North Park Road Exeter Devon EX4 4QE
Work T: +44 (0) 1392 724327
Fax: +44 (0) 1392 421252
E: danielle.c.wootton@exeter.ac.uk

 

[Erik in NJ]

This just shows you have no clue about our Laws. Its 300 years + & only includes items that contain 10% or more silver or gold content.(plus a few exceptions like bronze age hoards etc) And yes we have ALL the reports for those items, everyone thanks.
For your info, because you clearly need it, contact this person before you get yourself in trouble;

Danielle WoottonFinds Liaison Officer - Devon
Department of Archaeology, College of Humanities, University of Exeter Laver Building, North Park Road Exeter Devon EX4 4QE
Work T: +44 (0) 1392 724327
Fax: +44 (0) 1392 421252
E: danielle.c.wootton@exeter.ac.uk

It was a WAG and like I said you post multitudes of items that qualify for that threshold, so you post your receipts and I'll post mine, otherwise your credibly not only in dating other's items but in your bullying is being called out. You have no idea what authorities I have been in touch with here. But you are certainly quick to be way off on your dates of other's items and their IDs as well as "assuming" they are breaking the law. Sad! Your posts accusing me of breaking international laws should be removed by the admins as far as I'm concerned. I have never yet seen you post a single receipt in all the years I have been a member here. Just talk.

 

[CRUSADER]

It was a WAG and like I said you post multitudes of items that qualify for that threshold, so you post your receipts and I'll post mine, otherwise your credibly not only in dating other's items but in your bullying is being called out. You have no idea what authorities I have been in touch with here. But you are certainly quick to be way off on your dates of other's items and their IDs as well as "assuming" they are breaking the law. Sad! Your posts accusing me of breaking international laws should be removed by the admins as far as I'm concerned. I have never yet seen you post a single receipt in all the years I have been a member here. Just talk.

You have broken no Law. Until you take them home. (why would I accuse you of something you haven't done yet?)
In the same way I have broken no Law because I follow all of them.

Do you think I would post my finds on here & not record those that I have to by Law?
Maybe you do think this? (but I don't)

PS. I have never made myself out to be an expert in what the Archies call small finds identification. I'm willing to make plenty of guesses & I make plenty of mistakes. Does this bother me - no because I learn. Most are happy with my help, those who are not can stick me on ignore, something I've never done with anyone on here but its a function of the site you can take advantage of.

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

I know you gave the measurements but could you take a picture with something for a size reference I'd like a look. Any American coin would be perfect for me. I hope it ends up being some sort of point good luck

 

[CRUSADER]

It was a WAG and like I said you post multitudes of items that qualify for that threshold, so you post your receipts and I'll post mine, otherwise your credibly not only in dating other's items but in your bullying is being called out. You have no idea what authorities I have been in touch with here. But you are certainly quick to be way off on your dates of other's items and their IDs as well as "assuming" they are breaking the law. Sad! Your posts accusing me of breaking international laws should be removed by the admins as far as I'm concerned. I have never yet seen you post a single receipt in all the years I have been a member here. Just talk.

Last bit of free advice on our Laws;

NOTHING you have posted so far is declarable under the terms of the Treasure Act.
Most of it you can decide to VOLUNTEERILY report to the FLO via the Portable Antiquities Scheme (PAS).
If you decide to take anything dug OVER 50 YEARS OLD out of the Country, you will require an Export Licence.
As part of the Export Licence is declaring where the objects were found it's best practice to have a PAS reference, but its not mandatory.

 

[Erik in NJ]

I know you gave the measurements but could you take a picture with something for a size reference I'd like a look. Any American coin would be perfect for me. I hope it ends up being some sort of point good luck

Hi - I'm still in England and heading up to London, where I will unpack it and take some pics with a US coin or ruler for you. Sorry for the initial rudimentary pics as I didn't have much for reference at the time. Thanks for your interest!