Dagger - Need ID - Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TreasureTales]

Here are some photos of a dagger I dug up about 3 years ago. I know it's a DAGGER, but I don't know who made it, where, and when? I took it to a couple of gun/knive shows and received conflicting information from each guy who looked at it. I've tried to find one like it on the internet, but without success. I'm hoping my fellow TNet members can help answer my questions.

(I just bought a new digital camera today so I could post pix on TNet because seeing everybody else post pix but not being able to do it myself was very frustrating!!!! It's an early Christmas present to myself.)

Overall length is 10 3/4 inches The blade is iron. All the other pieces are bronze.

PHOTOS DELETED DUE TO NEW RULES FOR TREASURENET. TREASURENET REQUESTS NO COPYRIGHTED MATERIALS BE POSTED, MY MATERIAL IS MINE AND SHALL REMAIN MINE, HENCE THE DELETIONS. MY APOLOGIES TO THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE PHOTOS OF THIS INTERESTING AND OLD DAGGER, BUT MY PROPERTY (PHOTOS, STORIES, ETC.) SHALL REMAIN UNDER MY CONTROL.

 

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[Alchemy]

You're welcome

I was going to bid on that, but I can see it's going to go for too much. Out of my meger range, it'll have to go to a more serious collector.

Besides, after seeing your example...well, you know

 

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[Ant]

That's a great find and pictures to boot. WTG

 

[Alchemy]

It isn’t impossible for a Roman artifact to come to the US during the 17 and 1800’s. However, if such a item had come to the US I really think it pretty remote that it would end up in the ground. Whether back in the 17, 18 or 1900’s

Even in the 1700 and 1800’s collectors cherished such artifacts. Not used them and likely to have lost them.

That said, the style of the pommel/grip is not right for Roman.
Falcon heads/eagle = common mistake to call one or the other. (it gets into semantics…tomato - tomotto) lol
But, most people call a falcon head an eagle head…even collectors I’ve talked with at shows.

I’ll show it to a couple of the fella’s I know who deal in artifacts and see if they have any idea (one is in France, the other outside Croatia)

 

[tinpan]

Hi all, In the late victorian and edwardian era [1890-1930] The eagle, falcon,griffin,gyphor type ends were very popular in numerous countries and i have a pic of a pewter walking stick end from this era and they where also made of brass and what ever else.

tinpan

 

[tinpan]

You are correct - they WOULD be a cherished item.

However, I would really like to know what you come up with (Roman, Saxon, or from wherever), as artifacts NOT primarily from the U.S. is currently part of a book that is being written by my husband, and, since other unusual items, such as Roman and Carthagenian coins and Punic shipwrecks off the coast of the Americas have been found, this would be of great interest to us.

As to the possibility of Romans in America, the ancient historian Josephus, said that the Romans had sought beyond the ocean for other worlds to conquer, Plutarch's "Life of Sertorius" also shows some knowledge of lands in the America's. If of Roman origin, it may not have come from a collection, but rather from the owner of the item.

B

Hi ,based on geological info on the type of rock formation in Calfornia.Which is pre-Cambrian to Devonian age and the metalliferous emplacement of Palaeozonic.Any iron or iron parts of relics would have rusted away.This type of ground is every harsh on steel and only those iron relic that are thick wouldn,t last more that 200 years. Some exceptions of course .I have the same type of ground here in Australia and its very hard to find any iron object or part of in any condition worth keeping thats more than 150 years old.

Most ancient world empires, in my opinion had neither the navagation skill or the type of ship to cross the ocean to America.

tinpan

tinpan

 

[tinpan]

Hi treasuretales, I noticed you dagger has a ball end on the end of the handle,I,m sure that pre-industrial hand forged swords and daggers didn,t have a ball like that .That style of ball was a threaded nut to hold the bronze handle to the shaft.Does the handle shaft show any thread below the ball nut.

tinpan

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

I would suggest you take the dagger to a museum and ask them to identify it. To my eye, it does look Saxon or even Roman in origin, but it is not possible to tell for certain from photographs alone.

Tinpan wrote: Most ancient world empires, in my opinion had neither the navagation skill or the type of ship to cross the ocean to America.

Tinpan, have you researched the matter? The people of ancient times (classical age to early Iron age) were not the coast-hugging rafters of the stone age or the Medeival period when the state of knowledge and navigation had fallen considerably. Of the ancient empires, the Phoenicians and their western cousins Carthaginians were the experts of their day, the best in the world; even the skeptic concedes that they had sent out ships on voyages of exploration into the Atlantic, Indian and Pacific oceans, bringing spices like cinnamon, cloves, cassia from faraway SE Asia to trade in the Mediterranean - they circumnavigated Africa circa 600 BC, explored up the Nile river, traded for tin in the British isles and amber in the Baltic. There are ancient texts which support the idea that some kind of contact taking place - read Aristotle's somewhat obscure book "On Marvelous Things Heard" or Plutarch's Moralia XII, Diodorus Siculus and others - not only were these people aware that the world is spherical in nature, but they were aware of the existence of the Americas too. One of the most over-looked passages in Plato's tale of Atlantis proves this too - quote "

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

(from Timaeus by Plato)

There are also solid evidences of contact taking place in ancient times as well - a number of Egyptian mummies were found to have ingested tobacco (nicotine) and cocaine (from coca) when tested, American products; American peanuts were found in an ancient Chinese tomb dating to the second century BC, Old World cotton was found being cultivated by Amerindians when first discovered by Europeans; American corn is depicted on ancient Indian (as in Asia) statues, chickens were found being raised by Amerindians too, and many more products which prove that SOME kind of contact was taking place such as bottle gourds, peppers, and hemp. Does this mean that there were Roman legions marching around in Indiana? No of course not - in fact the most likely agents of such contact were Phoenicians and Carthaginians, and the level of contact was sporadic and relatively small. There are also ancient Punic and Phoenician shipwrecks found in the Americas too, including one off Bimini which was examined by a Yale professor who pronounced it Phoenician and dating to 1200 BC, a Punic wreck off the coast of Honduras and another in the Bay of Jars in Brazil as well as one found "deeply buried in sand" in Mexico.

Does this prove that the dagger must then be Roman? No obviously not - but it is not impossible; there is a possible Roman wreck off the coast of Massachusetts which has been casting Roman coins ashore for many years. Iron objects do sometimes survive in the ground for a surprising length of time - in my own collection I have several iron arrow points and spear points (including one Roman that is nearly a foot long) though they do not survive as well as bronze items. Even if the dagger were proven to be Roman or Saxon, it could well have been lost in the 1700s or 1800s, which would be long enough for what ever material made up the rest of the handle to rot away. Some mighty strange things have been found in the Americas though, (if you are curious, do a google on Calalus) including things which are not "supposed" to have been here including weapons, amphora, coins, oil lamps, even statues.

Is that knob on the end threaded on, or hammered on?

A VERY cool find, please keep us informed as to what you learn about it? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[romeo-1]

Wow...some great history and theories popping up in this thread! What an amazing find this would be if it turns out to be Roman!

 

[tinpan]

Greetings,

I would suggest you take the dagger to a museum and ask them to identify it.  To my eye, it does look Saxon or even Roman in origin, but it is not possible to tell for certain from photographs alone.

Tinpan wrote: Most ancient world empires, in  my opinion had neither the navagation skill or the type of ship to cross the ocean to America.

Tinpan, have you researched the matter?  The people of ancient times (classical age to early Iron age) were not the coast-hugging rafters of the stone age or the Medeival period when the state of knowledge and navigation had fallen considerably.  Of the ancient empires, the Phoenicians and their western cousins Carthaginians were the experts of their day, the best in the world; even the skeptic concedes that they had sent out ships on voyages of exploration into the Atlantic, Indian and Pacific oceans, bringing spices like cinnamon, cloves, cassia from faraway SE Asia to trade in the Mediterranean - they circumnavigated Africa circa 600 BC, explored up the Nile river, traded for tin in the British isles and amber in the Baltic.  There are ancient texts which support the idea that some kind of contact taking place - read Aristotle's somewhat obscure book "On Marvelous Things Heard" or Plutarch's Moralia XII, Diodorus Siculus and others - not only were these people aware that the world is spherical in nature, but they were aware of the existence of the Americas too.  One of the most over-looked passages in Plato's tale of Atlantis proves this too - quote "

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those  days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. 

(from Timaeus by Plato)

There are also solid evidences of contact taking place in ancient times as well - a number of Egyptian mummies were found to have ingested tobacco and nicotine when tested, American products; American peanuts were found in an ancient Chinese tomb dating to the second century BC, Old World cotton was found being cultivated by Amerindians when first discovered by Europeans; American corn is depicted on ancient Indian (as in Asia) statues, chickens were found being raised by Amerindians too, and many more products which prove that SOME kind of contact was taking place such as bottle gourds, peppers, and hemp.  Does this mean that there were Roman legions marching around in Indiana?  No of course not - in fact the most likely agents of such contact were Phoenicians and Carthaginians, and the level of contact was sporadic and relatively small.  There are also ancient Punic and Phoenician shipwrecks found in the Americas too, including one off Bimini which was examined by a Yale professor who pronounced it Phoenician and dating to 1200 BC, a Punic wreck off the coast of Honduras and another in the Bay of Jars in Brazil as well as one found "deeply buried in sand" in Mexico. 

Does this prove that the dagger must then be Roman?  No obviously not - but it is not impossible; there is a possible Roman wreck off the coast of Massachusetts which has been casting Roman coins ashore for many years.  Iron objects do sometimes survive in the ground for a surprising length of time - in my own collection I have several iron arrow points and spear points (including one Roman that is nearly a foot long) though they do not survive as well as bronze items.  Even if the dagger were proven to be Roman or Saxon, it could well have been lost in the 1700s or 1800s, which would be long enough for what ever material made up the rest of the handle to rot away.  Some mighty strange things have been found in the Americas though, (if you are curious, do a google on Calalus) including things which are not "supposed" to have been here including weapons, amphora, coins, oil lamps, even statues. 

Is that knob on the end threaded on, or hammered on? 

A VERY cool find, please keep us informed as to what you learn about it?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Hi oroblanco, you talk of roman,Phoenicians,Carthaginaian ships sailing the oceans of the world.If i,m not wrong both plato [writer] and Aristole where in fact Greeks and the text none as "TIMAEUS" was written 360 bc and the roman empire didn,t invade the far west edge of its empire untill 43AD Being the U.K.

Some Mediterrian Empires traded with the east and they would sail their ships to ports on the eastly side of the Mediterrian and then use the land route called the spice or silk route which streches hundreds of miles to the east, if not further.Theres a huge difference between distance North Africa and Europe than Europe to North America.Nor did any Mediterian empires sail round the Africa to Asia until much later in time.History is being rewritten and the fact is the believe that old world empires did sail and trade greater distances but not that far.
I do believe that a roman ship may have been lost a sea and when sunk of the coast of America.But there no evidence of planned trips to america or any roman settlements on the american main land.As far roman relics and coins go the are a common find all over the world.
people seem to just throw them away and when years later they found by modern m.ders. 



                                           tinpan

 

[dg39]

One VERY important question. Is the ball on top holding the handle together and is it screwed? Then common sense would answer your age question. (In other words how is it all held together?)

DG

 

[TreasureTales]

Well, my, my, my...seems we have a little debate going on here. LOL

To answer the pressing question: Is the tang threaded so that the ball screws onto the end? NOT LIKELY. The entire blade is iron. The entire ball/sleeve (cap) is bronze. To try to screw a cylindrical bronze sleeve onto a square iron tang won't work. I PRESUME (I'm certainly not an expert by any stretch of the imagination) that the bronze sleeve was soldered or welded (or some other type of hot-metal-to-hot-metal attachment) one to the other. OR the cap piece was crimped onto the tang. I say that because there are what appear to be crimp marks on two opposing sides of the ball. It is not possible to remove the cap because the rust from the iron tang is stuck fast to it. It does appear that the ball and sleeve were two separate pieces. I can see no seam or mold marks of any kind on any of the parts of this dagger.

Well, here, take a look for yourselves. Hope these photos help in the debate. I personally think the knife is from the mid-1850s.
Photo 1 shows the cap attached to the tang.
Photo 2 shows (if you look very closely) the crimp marks on the ball portion of the cap piece.

Your continued comments and ideas are encouraged. ((There is more and more evidence that people with European-type physical characteristics--whatever that really means?--were in America (the USA) PRIOR to the arrival of the Indians (aka Native Americans), but I think that information is probably irrelevent to the history/age of this dagger.)) Thanks everybody.

PHOTOS DELETED. SEE FIRST POST FOR REASONS WHY.

 

[Alchemy]

I as much as anyone would love to believe that a Phoenician or Carthaginian artifact could be found here in the states (and I’m not saying it’s impossible) being that I hold a Carthaginian Punic Tridrachm coin, professed to have been found in NY.
I was elated, until I found out it’s a forgery from the early 1800’s
But, finding such an object, (as this coin and this dagger) would be the one in a million chance.
(I wont say it couldn’t happen)

However, everything about this dagger points to the late 1700’s to early 1800’s
(from what I can see in the pictures)

Not to mention how well preserved it is. Sure the iron is in bad shape, but the bronze is in far too excellent of shape for it to be from the 3rd century BC.

In some major cities where there are larger museums, some of them offer a free service where they take a time (like the first Thursday of each month) where a person may bring in an artifact or an item they are trying to research. They’ll examine it and give as much info on the item as they can or are able to. In some cases they’ll request the item be left for further examination (if they’re very interested in it) Get a receipt (they have blundered from time to time…lol), and make it a hefty amount before you leave it with them (if they allow you to)
Some museums will take a look at it if you just call them and ask for a time, explaining what it is you need.
Keep in mind however, some of them do not have the staff that are knowledgable in this area...speaking of "local" smaller museums.

Same for sending it off to a museum if you choose. You’d send it certified and insured, with the fee for examination and a fee for them to send it back to you, certified (signature required) and insured.

That’s where I’d begin…looking locally for a museum that offers a free service to help research. Then if you have no luck, there are museums that offer services where you can mail it to them for authentication and attributing.

In the end, it’s really worth it to know what you have, even for some where the value isn’t important at all….the peace of mind is.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Tinpan and everyone,

Tinpan wrote:
Nor did any Mediterian empires sail round the Africa to Asia until much later in time.

Well heck Tinpan you are sure welcome to hold whatever view on this that you like, however if you are curious, check this out:
http://www.phoenicia.org/proutes.html

or this statement from Herodotus, Greek historian quote"
Libya is washed on all sides by the sea except where it joins Asia, as was first demonstrated, so far as our knowledge goes, by the Egyptian king Necho, who, after calling off the construction of the canal between the Nile and the Arabian gulf, sent out a fleet manned by a Phoenician crew with orders to sail west about and return to Egypt and the Mediterranean by way of the Straits of Gibraltar. The Phoenicians sailed from the Arabian gulf into the southern ocean, and every autumn put in at some convenient spot on the Libyan coast, sowed a patch of ground, and waited for next year's harvest. Then, having got in their grain, they put to sea again, and after two full years rounded the Pillars of Heracles in the course of the third, and returned to Egypt. These men made a statement which I do not myself believe, though others may, to the effect that as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya, they had the sun on their right - to northward of them. This is how Libya was first discovered by sea.
(from Herodotus' The Histories, 4:42 )
http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/hist01.htm

Most historians do concede that Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa in the sixth century BC, and were traveling by sea to bring spices from such places as the Moluccas (check that out on a map - the only ancient source of cloves, which have been found in ancient Egyptian tombs). The recent discoveries of Robert Ballard has fairly well proven that the ancient mariners were in fact using deep sea routes and NOT following coastlines (which any mariner can tell you is the MOST dangerous route, the safest and fastest routes are across the open oceans). An ancient text known as the Periplus Erythraeum (1st century BC) describes sailing to India from east Africa across the open ocean, a distance greater than that from west Africa to South America.

Anyway don't take my word for it, this is something I have put a lot of research into so read up for yourself, it really is interesting! I don't think Roman ships were deliberately traveling to America - except for one expedition (recorded by Josephus and others) which only reached islands (probably Caribbean) not the mainland - however they were aware the Earth was spherical and studied Greek texts. With Phoenicians (and Punic mariners) the voyages were deliberate, but small scale and sporadic. Accidental crossings certainly must have happened - remember a Norse ship was blown to America by accident (but did not land, leaving that honor to Leif Erikson) and Pedro Cabral was blown across the Atlantic to accidentally discover S. America. In fact both Diodorus and Aristotle state that Carthaginians discovered America by accident, when ships were blown across the Atlantic by storms, while founding colonies on the coast of Africa - the very same area where both Cabral and French captain Jean Cousin made un-intended crossings of the Atlantic. Chinese junks have been blown all the way across the Pacific to make landfall in America too!

Good luck and good hunting,
Oroblanco

 

[SomeGuy]

To try to screw a cylindrical bronze sleeve onto a square iron tang won't work.

You can definitely screw a square shaft into a round hole, as demonstrated by this old fashioned (but modern made) doorknob. A precision fit would not even show any threads outside of the sleeve.

 

[TreasureTales]

Alchemy, thanks for the suggestions. I live in a small town, far from a major museum. I guess I can try to send emails with photos to various musuems to see if any of them are interested in looking at it.

Thought you might like to know what the eBay seller had to say when I sent him a message asking how he determined the approximate date of his eagle head dagger, eBay item #190063141882 (made from a a sword, he says). He said, "I have been in militaria for 40 years and have many eagle head swords. they all seem to come from the 17 or 1800's/thanks jpk" So either you and he agree on the possible age of his dagger and mine, or you and jpk are the same person. LOL

Thanks for all the great help.

 

[TreasureTales]

To try to screw a cylindrical bronze sleeve onto a square iron tang won't work.

You can definitely screw a square shaft into a round hole, as demonstrated by this old fashioned (but modern made) doorknob. A precision fit would not even show any threads outside of the sleeve.

So you think it's possible that a hammered iron blade can be so precisely threaded that it won't even appear threaded when it's capped with a cylindrical sleeve?
And especially considering that the sleeve is too thin to have threads of its own that would be sturdy enough to work with iron threads? I have a difficult time accepting that scenario. The threaded portions of the shaft in your example are virtually round, they've certainly been rounded off. You know the old expression: You can't fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

[SomeGuy]

Yes, I do. Even the doorknob can be screwed in far enough to conceal the threads, it's adjustable to accommodate varying door and lock thicknesses, and it's not a highly crafted piece such as your dagger. The sharper shoulders on the center section of the shaft engage the lock mechanism.

The quality of the eagle's head shows attention to detail, so hidden threads would not surprise me, and the corrosion makes it impossible to tell, at least in the photo. Again, in the photo, the sleeve does not appear too thin to me, but you have the advantage of actually holding the object in your hand.

 

[TreasureTales]

Yes, I do. Even the doorknob can be screwed in far enough to conceal the threads, it's adjustable to accommodate varying door and lock thicknesses, and it's not a highly crafted piece such as your dagger. The sharper shoulders on the center section of the shaft engage the lock mechanism.

The quality of the eagle's head shows attention to detail, so hidden threads would not surprise me, and the corrosion makes it impossible to tell, at least in the photo. Again, in the photo, the sleeve does not appear too thin to me, but you have the advantage of actually holding the object in your hand.

OK, for the sake of argument (although that's just a figure of speech, no argument here...just discussion as far as I'm concerned) let's say it does have threads. How old could it be then? I would think that such precision threading would be a product of modern machining. So that wouldn't coincide with the rest of the dagger, which appears to be at least 150 years old.

 

[Oroblanco]

Alchemy wrote:
being that I hold a Carthaginian Punic Tridrachm coin, professed to have been found in NY.
I was elated, until I found out it’s a forgery from the early 1800’s

I know this is off-topic, but would you mind posting a couple photos of your coin? I collect Punic coins, would love to see a forgery - there are not a lot of forgeries of Punic coins in existence. (They are starting to appear though, watch out on Ebay and other online auctions!)
Oroblanco

PS Not to throw a 'monkey wrench' into the whole idea that finding threads on the dagger would "prove" it must be modern, but threading is not a modern invention. quote "The making of threaded bolts by hand was a process that changed little from ancient times to the first two decades of the 19th century. " (from Blackwell Synergy) hand-made screws, bolts and threaded rods have been around since quite ancient days! The earliest known screwdriver dates from the 15th-century. Slotted screws (which were inserted with screwdrivers) were then used in knight's armor. One is on display at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City, New York. "In antiquity, the Greek mathematician Archytas of Tarentum (428 – 350 BC)
was credited with the invention of the screw. By the 1st century BC, wooden
screws were commonly used throughout the Mediterranean world in devices such
as oil and wine presses. Metal screws used as fasteners did not appear in
Europe until the 1400s.

The metal screw did not become a common woodworking fastener until machine
tools for mass producing it were developed at the end of the 18th century.
The British engineer Henry Maudslay patented a screw-cutting lathe in 1797;
a similar device was patented by David Wilkinson in the United States the
next year."

Anyway just finding the knob threaded onto the tang would not "clinch" the age of the dagger.

 

[SomeGuy]

Yes, I do. Even the doorknob can be screwed in far enough to conceal the threads, it's adjustable to accommodate varying door and lock thicknesses, and it's not a highly crafted piece such as your dagger. The sharper shoulders on the center section of the shaft engage the lock mechanism.

The quality of the eagle's head shows attention to detail, so hidden threads would not surprise me, and the corrosion makes it impossible to tell, at least in the photo. Again, in the photo, the sleeve does not appear too thin to me, but you have the advantage of actually holding the object in your hand.

OK, for the sake of argument (although that's just a figure of speech, no argument here...just discussion as far as I'm concerned) let's say it does have threads. How old could it be then? I would think that such precision threading would be a product of modern machining. So that wouldn't coincide with the rest of the dagger, which appears to be at least 150 years old.

I'm guessing that mid 19th century would be well within the ballpark. I think Tinpan's comment was to distinguish it from much earlier objects.

I'm not too good on exact dates (and there really isn't one), but the industrial revolution began about the late 1700's; an important landmark happened when Eli Whitney invented the concept of interchangeable parts in the early 19th century.