Dear Big Brother..........(We know youre watching).....

[gollum]

Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

This is something that has been bugging me for quite a while now. I have also found that 99% of everyone I speak to about this is in agreement with me.

Your jobs could be made much easier if there were some Federal Guidelines so there would be some consistency in State Laws regarding Treasure Troves, Shipwreck Recoveries, etc.

As it is, in some states (ie Florida), there are fair and equitable laws regarding ownership of recovered objects. Other states (such as here in the People's Republic of California) are absolutely hostile to Metal detectorists and Treasure Hunters in general. I try to keep abreast of current laws in as many of the states as I can. I also do my best to abide by all laws that apply where I hunt. When I talk to people both who do this as a hobby and those who do this for a living, I find that because of persecution and prosecution in the past, most people are too scared to say a word about anything they find.

I think the reason the government has gone to these insane lengths is because they listen a little too closely to the egghead set! There are some people who think that everybody with a metal detector is a grave robber and artifact looter. While that may be true in some cases, most detectorists and divers I know would gladly comply with the laws as long as the laws were sensible and had some consistency from state to state. As the laws stand, each state differs DRASTICALLY in what is allowed and what is not allowed. I understand that different states have very different situations regarding valuables recovery.

If you leave things as they are, you will drive many good normal people to become criminals! Many of them will not even know they are breaking the law. Say, somebody from Nebraska on vacation walking down a Florida Beach, picks up a gold coin. He just got a great vacation memento, and since he didn't report the find, he is also a felon (depending on the value of the coin). It doesn't have to be Florida. It could be any one of a number of states.

Another, more difficult situation would be someone four-wheeling in a California Desert State Park off-road area. They are going up some arroyo and break an axle. When they get out of their vehicle, they notice something odd further into the arroyo. When they walk in to check it out, they see several chunks of gold bearing ore laying on the ground. They pick it up and take it home. They are now felons. By law, they aren't even supposed to take a rock home from a California State Park. Should they have left it where they found it? Should they have found the nearest Ranger Station and turned it in? Technically, yes. Either of the two would have been the only options by law. Now let's get back to Earth....even knowing they were breaking the law, any human would do exactly the same thing...take the ore home, and keep it a secret. If there were fair laws that would allow people to show what they find and if valuable, get a share of the total, more people would go public and the revenue to the Sate Parks would increase.

Say, something like if I find a gold reef in a state park, and I report the find to the Park HQ, I should get a fair percentage of the value of the reef, and the park could decide what to do with it (dig it out or guard and display it). I wouldn't even feel the slightest urge to break the law if I knew that I would be treated fairly and equitably by the state.

To sum up....DON'T BE GREEDY! STOP LISTENING TO THE EGGHEADS ONLY! BE FAIR IN DEALING WITH US, AND WE WILL BE HONEST WITH OUR FINDINGS! Nobody wants to be a criminal, but your unfair laws force good people to make crappy decisions! Fortunately, my few findings have been on private land, with owners' consent of search. Some monument trails have led me into a State Park. When this happens, I get a sinking feeling in my stomach, because I know the trail could end in the park, and I will have to make the decision of whether I want to lose everything, or become a criminal! It's not a choice I have had to make yet, and is one that I hope I never have to make! I can't swear I wouldn't go to the Dark Side!

The eggheads HATE detectorists, and vice versa. If the level of emotions could be lowered, and the wild accusations stopped, you would see that in countries like England, that because their laws are now fair, the amount of historical artifacts found and turned in have increased exponentially, and everyone is happier. The archaeologists and historians get more objects to help them decode their history, and the detectorists either keep some of their find, or make a fair profit on it! NOBODY LOSES!

Thanks for letting me vent-Mike

 

[midas777gold]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

The rules are absolutely ABSURD. Our state parks say that NOTHING can be removed. All those people that bring home sand on their feet are criminals. The best policy is DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL>

 

[Will_detect4food]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

I agree with you Mike, But I also understand why they don't want people digging up our nation monuments and state historical markers. I also think that legislation would only make things worse. next thing you know they will pass a law that you must be certified or licensed to be a metal detector operator

 

[gollum]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

I agree with you Mike, But I also understand why they don't want people digging up our nation monuments and state historical markers. I also think that legislation would only make things worse. next thing you know they will pass a law that you must be certified or licensed to be a metal detector operator

You know what? If it makes it easier for me to get access to wildlands to treasure hunt, I wouldn't mind having to get licensed. I'm that frustrated now! I don't hobby metal detect per se. Meaning I don't do school yards, or looking for anything small. I mostly use metal detectors to nugget hunt, and look for signs of human habitation around probable cache or treasure sites.

How about this then? It's ok to TH and/or Metal Detect in a state or national park with a license. To get the license, you would have to take a US Forestry Class about exactly what they consider to be of historical significance, and what things not to do while TH'ing/MD'ing in the park. This license would be good in all 50 states and Puerto Rico. You must sign in with the Park Ranger's Office if you intend to MD in the Park. This way, they could tell you from someone not following the rules. I know what you're thinking, after you sign in, they will watch you like a hawk. Probably so, until they realize that the people who are signing in aren't the ones they have to watch out for. They could even have different levels of licenses that you could get. The more training classes (in archaeology for instance) you take, the more leeway they would give you in digging. You could be an amateur archaeologist, geologist, etc. I assume you would have to pay for the classes (which would pay for themselves), and the licenses (which would help pay for parks maintenance). A win win situation!

I really don't think that would be unreasonable, considering it would give you all-access to MD in every State and National Park in the US (Wouldn't you like to work some of the streams and washes in Yosemite?)!

And if you are only a recreational MD'er who hunts beaches, parks, schools, etc. no license is required.

What do you think?

Mike

 

[Will_detect4food]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

Mike it would be sweet to MD Yosemite. but keep in mind licences always cost money, and whose going to certify us? many among are the best of the best. Can we be grandfatherd in? And sadly it probably wont be a lover of metal detecting that writes the law.


Some things are better left alone- may be cheaper to bribe the park ranger
i did not say that someone else did

 

[gollum]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

Mike it would be sweet to MD Yosemite. but keep in mind licences always cost money, and whose going to certify us? many among are the best of the best. Can we be grandfatherd in? And sadly it probably wont be a lover of metal detecting that writes the law.


Some things are better left alone- may be cheaper to bribe the park ranger
i did not say that someone else did

I know how the government works, and this idea would be too easy, and make too much sense. Yes, the licenses would cost, but so do fishing and hunting licenses. And to an extent, you get to keep what you hunt (don't go over your limit)! If a national MD'ing License cost $50, and say you worked Yosemite and found a couple of thousand, or even a couple of hundred dollars in nuggets, wouldn't that be worth it? A couple of hundred in nuggets isn't very much! I would guess that the classes could be given at every state or national park. Maybe not even classes. Make it like a Driving Written Exam. Send in for the booklet that tells whats ok and whats not (free from the government). After you study the booklet, go to any State or National Park office, or even DMV maybe? Take the test. Passit and pay your $50 bucks. Good for one year in any state or national park!

Mike

 

[Will_detect4food]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

your assuming its only going to be 50 bucks, what if they say 500 or more yearly? or have different levels of the license and nation parks require $5000 fee and 2 years training,
If its as simple as a fishing licence than more power to em, But legislature has a way F*ing things up

 

[gollum]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

Not too likely. They don't charge excessive amounts for fishing and hunting licenses do they? They would have to weigh in a cost benefit analysis to try and figure what people would pay, and at what point people would say f*** it, and take a risk.

Mike

 

[Jeffro]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

Totally against registering or licensing.... then all the rules get harder and harder to live by as the years go on.... they keep picking away at where, when , why and how you can do it. Not to mention all those opposed to MDing will have a say in how you go about your business. Don't even go there.....

 

[Jeffro]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

LOL, it comes from experience...

I first started dredging about 12 years ago, no permit required. There was a "guidelines" put out by DEQ, no problem. then one day this stranger shows up at camp and asks to see my permit. I said I don't have one, not was I aware there even WAS one. Turns out he was from the DSL (Division of State lands) and said don't worry, its free.... would you like one? Sure, I said....totally ignorant.

DEQ and DSL both thought they were "in charge". The rules changed from month to month, it seems. Meetings and environmental impact statements, drafts, and round table discussions. You can bet every tree hugging hippy showed up for these, saying we were killing fish and all sorts of other scary stuff. Dredgers don't kill fish..... fishermen kill fish..... LOL!


Anyways, long story short.... the rules keep getting harder and harder to live by every year and eventually anyone who wants to enjoy a little time in the water will be regulated right out.

PS.... just so you know if no one fights them, these rules and regs can become LAW in 7 years, if there's no opposition.


Don't even think about permits, and fight 'em if they try. We regulate ourselves pretty doggone good, no need to change things. Plus once you give them the power to regulate you, you are giving away your right to disagree with their rules. you have to agree with the rules to get a permit. And the rules are made by someone who has absolutely no idea what MDing is all about, just some suit who listens to both sides and tries to find a compromise.

lets say there are 100 metal detectorists out there. 1 of them is a dipstick who won't fill in his holes. Because of this someone gets upset and calls for regulation. The government sees an opportunity for yet another program to waste your tax dollars on. Guess where it goes from there?

100 people paying 50 bucks a year to be regulated and told what they can and can't do by someone who has no clue, and the guy who was ticked off about the holes he didn't see filled in has an equal say in how 100 people do their hobby! All because of 1 dipstick.

Lets regulate ourselves..... if you see someone out there doing something like this, try to steer them in the right direction for the benefit of all of us.

 

[gollum]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

Jeffro,

I agree with you to a point, but as things stand right now, it is illegal to MD or TH in a state or national park PERIOD (In the People's Republic of California anyway)! So the only way to do it right now would be illegally. If caught, your MD and equipment (including vehicle) would be confiscated. They would assume you are stealing artifacts of historical significance, and would then easily get a search warrant with what evidence they had, go through your home and confiscate your computer, any collections you may have, all of your research materials, and anything else having to do with MD'ing or TH'ing.

If I had a choice between not being able to legally MD or TH in State or National parks, and having to take a class and purchase a license, thereby giving me access to every Park in the country, I think I would take the latter.

I understand your point, but laws are getting tougher and more restrictive for us no matter what we do. Fight the system from the inside (you get more access).

Mike

 

[Rusted_Iron]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

I understand what Jeffro is saying and I agree with the sentiment, but I do agree with gollum about not wanting to go on a forbidden area and get my vehicle confiscated and my house busted into.

There should be some legal mechanism to grant responsible TH'ers access to areas that otherwise would be blanket-restricted to any kind of detecting or digging.

I think a lot of it has to do with envy. People are resentful that you can go out and find something, dig it up with your own hands. They are too lazy to get up off their rear and do it themselves, so they do their damndest to make sure you won't be able to do it, either.

 

[gollum]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

I understand what Jeffro is saying and I agree with the sentiment, but I do agree with gollum about not wanting to go on a forbidden area and get my vehicle confiscated and my house busted into.

There should be some legal mechanism to grant responsible TH'ers access to areas that otherwise would be blanket-restricted to any kind of detecting or digging.

I think a lot of it has to do with envy. People are resentful that you can go out and find something, dig it up with your own hands. They are too lazy to get up off their rear and do it themselves, so they do their damndest to make sure you won't be able to do it, either.

I'm not sure that is it either. Maybe for some, but not the majority. I believe the majority are real Archaeologists and Historians who think that everybody with a metal detector is a potential grave robber, and if envy enters into it, I think the pro's might be nervous that amateurs could make many major historically significant finds and the pros would be embarrassed at that! Many of them think that their degree makes them Indiana Jones, and us non-degreed individuals are just a bunch of schmocks who steal national treasures.

Mike

 

[Jeffro]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

If you are talking about some sort of permit to hunt specifc areas, go for it. Talk to the head chief in charge of whereever it is you want to hunt or whatever, site specific. As it is right now National parks are off limits nationwide. However, there may be a way legally to gain access, If you can prove that your use will not disturb the area as much as other uses that are permitted, maybe. I find there's plenty of land outside of these places that I don't worry about it. Its "the grass is always greener" syndrome.

If an Archy can gain access, then we should be able to as well.

But as for blanketing the entire hobby with a Metal Detecting permit so we can be regulated? I don't think so.... If they were to try and do it, wouldn't it be great if no one signed up? I wish I had just said no to the guy who offered me the dredge permit in the first place. By accepting it, I agreed to be regulated to death. If no one voluntarily accepts regulation, well then the program is dead before it starts.

 

[ferrouser]

Give us a break, Mike

Licensed and certified? Those 'people' are the worst plunderers of all-it all comes down to which egghead/museum has access to everything, while at the same time stopping all others from having access. And most of the large sales are from one museum or archaeologist, to another.

 

[gollum]

Re: Give us a break, Mike

Licensed and certified? Those 'people' are the worst plunderers of all-it all comes down to which egghead/museum has access to everything, while at the same time stopping all others from having access. And most of the large sales are from one museum or archaeologist, to another.

No arguments about that. My whole point with this is, wouldn't it be worth it to pay a small licensing and entry fee to be able to detect in a national or state park?

Mike

 

[ericwt]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

Mike: what you are saying makes some sense, so it will never happen.

Although, anything the government regulates it usually screws up more.

ericwt

 

[gollum]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

Mike: what you are saying makes some sense, so it will never happen.

Although, anything the government regulates it usually screws up more.

ericwt

NAH! Just look at fishing licenses. Same principle. Not too hard to implement or administer.

Mike

 

[GreenMeanie]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

You might want to ask some hunters about hunting laws and how they change.
I am dead against a license the GOV gets to much of my money and tells me to many things I have to do already.

Look how hunting has changed. No more rifles only slug shotguns. Smaller bag limits for guns but more for archery. They go on and on.
So lets say they say PI machines only and one coin per season and require you to goto classes and then pass a test to be able to go coin hunt. I already go threw that BS to just gun hunt , have a pistol, archery hunt ETC ETC. I don't need any more licenses.

So my question to you is why have a license? Why not get people together and change the stupid law.

 

[gollum]

Re: Dear Big Brother..........(We know you're watching).....

Because the stupi law will never change. There is not enough reason for them to take our side, and PLENTY of reasons for the gov. to take the archies side (they don't want the national parks all dug up, don't want people stealing items of historical value, etc, etc, etc).

Since the law will never change in this politically correct world we live in, you have to learn to fight from the inside. If we could get a law passed that would allow us to TH and MD in the park system with permits, and we could then show some good stories about new things being found, and TH'ers and MD'ers working with archies on historical sites, THEN we could fight (with a leg to stand on) for easing of the laws! Schools, Smithsonian, and all other archie abodes are deeply entrenched in our government. Metal Detectorists are only known for being either retirees looking for coins on beaches, and defilers of civil war battlefields. We need to build up some good press nationally, before we could even attempt to completely change MD laws.

Mike