Denied access to construction site-advice?

[Catobra]

Near me they have recently torn down many houses from the 50's/60's on many acres and the site is now just construction equipment (earth mover-type). It looks like they are just starting to bring in the ugly yellow construction dirt now and it is moving fast. There are rumors that it is to become a Walmart. A sign posted lists the developer and I just emailed him and asked for permission for myself and a few others to hunt there. If permission had been received, my intention was to let the first few serious responders from TN in the area know we had received permission and possibly hunt with them.

Even though I stated that we would sign hold harmless waivers and were "professionals" who would not harm anything on site, the response received, though very curteous, was negative due to insurance reasons.

I am sure people have been through this before. Is it just a dead end or is there anything more that I can do to get permission to hunt there?

Thank you for any help!

 

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[Catobra]

RickJr-I have been thinking about attending a meeting to see what it's like. I didn't know that clubs had things like that. Best of luck getting permission for the base (and, if you do, finding some great finds!)

Tom-I agree, most of corporate America is too lazy or stupid to get out of their own way, let alone mine : )

Sean-I think that would be the ticket on a smaller scale, not-so-high-profile site. This site has had a lot of attention drawn to it over the years (not because of any historical reason), is at a well-traveled intersection and has a local cop on site during the day. It is something I would def consider on a smaller site.

 

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[Gunrunner61]

The only time to ask permission from "the boss" on a large project is AFTER being kicked off of the project site by someone who isn't the boss. Unless you get it from the GC's secretary, it is doubtful you will ever get permission from a GC, but if you've already been kicked off site, you have nothing to lose by asking. Waivers and other legal paperwork are completely useless in these situations and you'll only get permission from a GC if you have a common friend or if he likes you and recognizes you to be a like-minded individual. (95% of the time he won't)

Here is how to get permission to access a site:
Rule 1: Never ask a GC, supervisor, project manager etc. (these are usually the clean guys with white hats, nice trucks and expensive shirts)

If everyone on a site with no overhead work is wearing a hard hat, an inspector/client/osha/etc. is around and you should come back at a different time. (I shouldn't have to say it, but never ever venture onto a site with overhead work under any circumstance)

There will be subcontractors working for the GC and you want to ask a lower level employee of one of the subs. Generally speaking the best guys to ask are the ones with dirt on their shirts, and even better are the guys who don't speak much English.

Never interrupt, ask a formal question or make them raise an eyebrow, just say something like "is everything ok?" or "am I good over here?" when walking past. If you talk with anyone at length, form a bond and be incredibly nice. If told to leave, apologize and mention that you'd been told it was ok and begin to leave, then hesitate and ask who you'd need to speak with to get permission. Remember the old adage about honey being sweeter than vinegar and if you get booted off site, never be a jerk about it.

Other things: Never go when the site is busy (unless it is so busy that you will not be noticed) - Try to look like you belong on site. Wear work clothes and minimize the hobbyist appearance. If you look like you are homeless, a criminal or another undesirable character, please recognize that you look like an undesirable character and don't be upset when you are not desired.

If you are or were involved in law enforcement, the military, construction, unions or anything which may be respected by folks on site, it may be helpful to have a minimally sized badge or pin etc, but don't go overboard with it.

If you are confronted, it may be helpful to mention a family/friend connection to the site (ahem ahem) and never use "historic" terms or let on that you care anything remotely about history.

Lastly, consider what you would think if you were in charge of the site and some unknown person was wandering around. Make it a point to avoid equipment, materials or dangerous places. Don't get in the way. Don't be a nuisance. Keep far away from anything of value. If you look like you are casing the joint, you will be treated like a thief.

Hmmmm................If I were standing on the edge of a cliff, I would'nt want you behind me. How hard is it to understand NO!!!!!!, Your suggestions above, personally sound (forgive my french) STUPID!!! How about the honest aproach, no is no and yes is yes........If i go to a construction site you want me to talk to the little mexican laborer to get perrmission........Thats whats wrong with our hobby!

 

[dholland02]

No this guy made the mistake on a site with abandon houses and from what I understand that Havnt started working. Just go at it there's no fences, or no tress passing signs hanging do it up. The worst they will do is tell you to leave.

I've seen a few post of people always wanting permission form people for places such as churchs, schools, parks etc. The only places I will ask for permission is someones house. I'm sorry if everyone doesn't feel the same way.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Greg, I don't think that what was meant , was to approach a low level laborer AFTER getting a "no" from someone higher up. Instead I think what was meant , was to START with the lower level person . And if they say yes , then don't argue with a "yes".

 

[Catobra]

No this guy made the mistake on a site with abandon houses and from what I understand that Havnt started working. Just go at it there's no fences, or no tress passing signs hanging do it up. The worst they will do is tell you to leave.

I've seen a few post of people always wanting permission form people for places such as churchs, schools, parks etc. The only places I will ask for permission is someones house. I'm sorry if everyone doesn't feel the same way.

Ok, sorry, but I find a few things wrong with this post:

#1 I'm a woman, but no biggie honest mistake

#2 The houses were not abandoned, but empty and boarded up after being purchased many years ago by a developer to make room for an as-yet-unknown retailer. Signs for this developer have always been posted at a couple of locations on the site.

#3 As previously stated, they have started working as there are several huge moving "earth-mover" type vehicles scattered around the site, pushing dirt around and leaving behind yellow construction dirt (a technical term, I know : )

#4 Although I was 99.9% sure that "Do not enter a privately owned site without the owner's permission" was an integral part of the metal detectorists ethics, I double checked a few other websites, and yes, that is the case on each one-in fact, usually stated as #1 on the list. "Don't ask permission" has been a frequent response of this thread, and like Greg says above, "That's what's wrong with our hobby!" I am quite surprised that so many posters of this thread have either said outright, "Don't ask permission" or alluded to it. As diggummup posted about in a recent thread (loosely paraphrased), "Where have people's integrity and ethics gone?" As far as I know, "privately owned" includes commercial sites.

Let the hate mail begin : )

 

[dholland02]

Sorry I ddnt know ur gender my bad

But we all have diffenret views in this here and I know mine and many people on here I'm sure dnt argee with me and that's fine. I was just giving my opinion on it

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Ok, sorry, but I find a few things wrong with this post:

#1 I'm a woman, but no biggie honest mistake

#2 The houses were not abandoned, but empty and boarded up after being purchased many years ago by a developer to make room for an as-yet-unknown retailer. Signs for this developer have always been posted at a couple of locations on the site.

#3 As previously stated, they have started working as there are several huge moving "earth-mover" type vehicles scattered around the site, pushing dirt around and leaving behind yellow construction dirt (a technical term, I know : )

#4 Although I was 99.9% sure that "Do not enter a privately owned site without the owner's permission" was an integral part of the metal detectorists ethics, I double checked a few other websites, and yes, that is the case on each one-in fact, usually stated as #1 on the list. "Don't ask permission" has been a frequent response of this thread, and like Greg says above, "That's what's wrong with our hobby!" I am quite surprised that so many posters of this thread have either said outright, "Don't ask permission" or alluded to it. As diggummup posted about in a recent thread (loosely paraphrased), "Where have people's integrity and ethics gone?" As far as I know, "privately owned" includes commercial sites.

Let the hate mail begin : )

Well for starters, those who advocate not asking for permission, might be referring to public places where permission is not needed, .... to begin with.

But let's put public parks, beaches, demolition sites, etc... aside for a moment, as a different subject. Let's focus insead for the moment on different types of private property:

Are you aware that shopping centers are "private property"? Yup. Yet if you go down to any shopping center, you will see people coming and going without asking. There is usually a brass plaque in the parking lot, or on a signpost or somewhere, that reads something to the effect: "Private Property, permission to pass revokable by owner". In other words, they are quasi-public, in that the public can certainly go on there, and whistle dixie, or do whatever, and ...... unless told otherwise (ie.: "revoked"), he's ok. The same sort of "quasi-public" feel is at churches (where anyone can walk through the doors on Sunday AM, or take a short-cut across the lawn, etc... and no one would pay a second glance.

But contrast those types of quasi-public, with someone's private front yard, of a personal home.

I know this is "splitting hairs", and I know that hate-mail will come my way too, but ...... I see a difference between if Walmart or some out-of-state developer has bought up a block of old homes, or a derelict abandoned corner lot or something, to prepare to develop (and thus scrapes off a juicy few inches in an old town district ) verses someone's front yard. As I say, I know this is splitting hairs, but .... I bet even the most ardent ethics person still steps off the sidewalk to take a short cut through a weed-choked corner lot. I mean, c'mon.

You have rightly observed that the "code of ethics" (seen frequently in md'ing websites, the md'ing magazine front inside cover, and on the instruction manual of all machines sold) does NOT say anything about this. It just makes a blanket statement about all private property (regardless of the level of innocuousness). Why? Because did you *really* think they could go into great detail about abandoned vs *not really* abandoned, and so forth? In fact, if you read some of those codes of ethics lists, (depending on the version), some persons have come away with the notion that they also must have permission for even public places (even where no prohibitions exist), merely because the code says something to the effect "know and obey all laws" (which they interpret to mean ... go ask "can I?" )

 

[Catobra]

As much as I love an intelligent and spirited debate and would love to shoot holes in Tom's most recent reply, it seems that this is a no win situation-there are simply those of us who believe that asking permission is a must-have and black-and-white and others who believe that there are quite a few shades of gray.

 

[spartacus53]

This falls under ninja metal detecting 101, but you didn't hear it from me

Go to Home Depot and but yourself a hardhat and reflective vest. Then just show up on the site as a regular worker and get busy

 

[PYRATE]

Hmmmm................If I were standing on the edge of a cliff, I would'nt want you behind me. How hard is it to understand NO!!!!!!, Your suggestions above, personally sound (forgive my french) STUPID!!! How about the honest aproach, no is no and yes is yes........If i go to a construction site you want me to talk to the little mexican laborer to get perrmission........Thats whats wrong with our hobby!

Please re-read my post.

Once you get a no from the GC, PM etc., you are done, so therefore never ask "the boss" if at all possible because they are going to flat out deny you every single time.

One of the reasons these guys get to wear the white hat is that they are concerned about risk management.

Laborers could usually care less about such things, especially the fine gents from the free country to the south of ours.

 

[Bum Luck]

Laborers could usually care less about such things, especially the fine gents from the free country to the south of ours.

They don't run the job - the job sup does.

I am somewhat alarmed at the rationalizations here about permissions. If we are better than American Diggers, we have to act that way.

Here's another way to look at it: What does the job sup have to gain by letting you on the site? Nothing. What does he have to lose? Everything, including his job. You could get hurt, then sue the companies. Worse, you could find some artifacts/burials that could shut down the job for months - then everyone loses their job. Walmart loses a ton of money. They won't be amused. If you have permission, the ax will fall on the guy who let you on. If you don't, you will likely be prosecuted and/or sued. You wouldn't do it if you were in his position.

I've worked with dozens of job sups on all kinds of jobs and been one myself.

The job sup has a tough job; he can't do it fast enough to satisfy anyone, and a million things go wrong all the time and he has to deal with it. It's a high pressure headache. You just don't belong in a construction environment; it's not like it used to be, and never will. Think of it like being a cop in Miami; it takes special skills to survive.

There may be times when you can get into their world and hunt smaller jobs, but the best way is to be aware of that world and approach them from that direction. I am completely at home in that world, and know what to say in order to connect with a construction sup, but I'd put my chances at about 20% in getting on a job like that.

Please have respect for the multi-million dollar business activity going on there, and the man whose responsibility it is to complete that job on time and on budget.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

They don't run the job - the job sup does......

Bum luck, while it's true that there are higher ups, you can perpetually go up the ladder for, yet any worker on the job (even if 2nd, 3rd, or 4th tier down), can still say "yes", as they too have been subrogated some form of authority (however so limited), by virtue of them being a worker there. And who cares if someone over them can "over-ride" that permission? That's the worker's problem, not yours. Your b*tt is covered, so long as you can say "I asked that fellow over there". Then in the worst case, that say-so can be over-ridden.

And of course we should all have the "presence of mind" to go after the work is over for the day, so as not to be a sore thumb begging for attention, to begin with. So the fear you have of "artifacts shutting down the job", or a lower-level employee's b*tt getting chewed, etc... is not going to happen. I mean, even with the "yes", I STILL don't go waltzing around as if that therefore means I own the place. I still avoid lookie-lous and busy-bodies, as much as possible. The "yes" is only for if worse came to worse, and I ever was actually questioned.

The reason why to not go as high up the ladder as you can (to company presidents, coorporate lawyer pencil pushers, etc...), is because the higher you go, you merely increase the odds of a "no". But I can tell you of LOTS of times where a carpenter, or electrician, or maintenance worker there after shift to lube the tractors has said "gee, shucks, I don't see why not". And never had any problems. Or another example: In my area is agriculture (row vegetable crops), for millions of acres up and down where I live. The lands are owned (or leased/rented anyhow) by mega coorporations, whose offices are perhaps in other states, or whatever. Occasionally I've researched out spots in what is now row crops. And it's always a slam dunk "yes" to simply ask the fieldworkers (usually first generation immigrants, but I know enough spanish to get the question by). And they always say "yes" (as they are intrigued by the concept, and then want to, of course, tell you about treasure back in their home country, haha).

 

[New Orleans Relic]

As much as I love an intelligent and spirited debate and would love to shoot holes in Tom's most recent reply, it seems that this is a no win situation-there are simply those of us who believe that asking permission is a must-have and black-and-white and others who believe that there are quite a few shades of gray.

I'm sort of in a situation now here where, just announced yesterday,the city plans to repair and reopen a 100yr old market place on the New Orleans riverfront. Drove by there a few hours ago. Its already fenced off, with a trailor set up. Trailer guy(security) would be my first contact about 5:45 pm, the day after I seen concrete slabs broken and hauled off or when they scrape top soil layers .Not likely cause the street and sidewalk there was replaced it seems after Katrina. I'll be back. They could be scraping or taking foundation inside. I can be chummy with security( the trailor guy). Not likely, but a security ok ,is a good ok !! Its not dark till about 8pm here now. Just had a conversation with someone that had heard me say that "sometimes its easier to ask forgivness than permission". It sometimes is very understandable. I later learned he had missed the "sometimes " part, which is very important, and was indirectly bashing my character. He understands me better now. Told him from now it'll be "When I'm wrong, I'm humble" not "When its gray, Look for Ray". Haven't had any issues yet im my long 9.6 months. LOL
HH, RAY

 

[dholland02]

The construction crew would be more than likely to find any burial sites if there would be something like that, and what really are the chances of finding something like that. if you fo cover it up and let them find it.

But like I said before I have my veiws of where and when to get permission on a site, I'm sorry if everyone thinks I'm doing it the wrong way.

 

[Bum Luck]

Bum luck, while it's true that there are higher ups, you can perpetually go up the ladder for, yet any worker on the job (even if 2nd, 3rd, or 4th tier down), can still say "yes", as they too have been subrogated some form of authority (however so limited), by virtue of them being a worker there. And who cares if someone over them can "over-ride" that permission? That's the worker's problem, not yours. Your b*tt is covered, so long as you can say "I asked that fellow over there". Then in the worst case, that say-so can be over-ridden.

And of course we should all have the "presence of mind" to go after the work is over for the day, so as not to be a sore thumb begging for attention, to begin with. So the fear you have of "artifacts shutting down the job", or a lower-level employee's b*tt getting chewed, etc... is not going to happen. I mean, even with the "yes", I STILL don't go waltzing around as if that therefore means I own the place. I still avoid lookie-lous and busy-bodies, as much as possible. The "yes" is only for if worse came to worse, and I ever was actually questioned.

The reason why to not go as high up the ladder as you can (to company presidents, coorporate lawyer pencil pushers, etc...), is because the higher you go, you merely increase the odds of a "no". But I can tell you of LOTS of times where a carpenter, or electrician, or maintenance worker there after shift to lube the tractors has said "gee, shucks, I don't see why not". And never had any problems. Or another example: In my area is agriculture (row vegetable crops), for millions of acres up and down where I live. The lands are owned (or leased/rented anyhow) by mega coorporations, whose offices are perhaps in other states, or whatever. Occasionally I've researched out spots in what is now row crops. And it's always a slam dunk "yes" to simply ask the fieldworkers (usually first generation immigrants, but I know enough spanish to get the question by). And they always say "yes" (as they are intrigued by the concept, and then want to, of course, tell you about treasure back in their home country, haha).

I'm only posting on a topic I happen to know a lot about.

 

[cudamark]

I'm with the ones who want to get permission from anyone on the site....even the sub-contractor's flunky's assistant! My reasoning is that once you start detecting and show that you're responsible and not doing any damage, they have less of a reason to deny you access at a later date or from a higher up. Of course, bringing a 6pack at whistle time or doughnuts in the morning doesn't hurt your chances either!

 

[lost]

Thought I was through with posting my opinion on entering construction sites open or closed. Just had to add this, believe it or not. A couple of hours ago I made a grocery run to town passing the site of a new County Elementary School site being cleared. A four foot guv wire fence with silt barriers added surrounding this several acre site, one wide opening in and out, a dozen or so pieces of yellow equipment pushing the top off the site, trucks hauling it to the back, A Job Super with his White Hat outside watching the progress. You know what I'm going to say next? Yep, two guys with metal detectors working the site. Baseball caps instead of Hard Hats so they were not part of the crew. Each had a car parked near the area they were working. Well away from the heavy equipment. Will not buy they were county employees or Archie's. Those kind of people wear Hard Hats and vests in 120 degree weather. I'm tempted to grab my detector and run out there and start on the dirt the trucks are dumping out back. But, then again our heat index is 105 and I'd be the one who attracted the attention of somebody who cared what was happening.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Lost, well if those two guys were hunting WHILE the work was in progress, then they must've gotten a "yes". Like perhaps someone on the const. crew is their buddy, or some such strings to pull. I too have gotten "in's" (because I'm in construction related business) that has allowed me to hunt some sites WHILE demolition is going on.

But if I don't have such an "in", then ...... well ....... if I was you, seeing as how that's a school demo site (and hence public land), I'd simply wait till the crews are done for the day, and go join those two fellers. Most md'rs welcome comraderie and fellow hunters anyhow. I enjoy hunting with others, and if I see another md'r approach me in a site, I actually enjoy the opporunties to make new friends, hunt with others (as a form of "pacing" and challenge, etc...). Then in that case, perhaps whatever "in" they have to be there hunting during the day, they can include you in subsequent day's hunts.

On the other hand, if they're not the sort to like competition or others hunting nearby, then perhaps they might use whatever "in" they have, to tell you "you can't be here". Ya never know till you try

 

[PYRATE]

They don't run the job - the job sup does.

I am somewhat alarmed at the rationalizations here about permissions. If we are better than American Diggers, we have to act that way.

Here's another way to look at it: What does the job sup have to gain by letting you on the site? Nothing. What does he have to lose? Everything, including his job. You could get hurt, then sue the companies. Worse, you could find some artifacts/burials that could shut down the job for months - then everyone loses their job. Walmart loses a ton of money. They won't be amused. If you have permission, the ax will fall on the guy who let you on. If you don't, you will likely be prosecuted and/or sued. You wouldn't do it if you were in his position.

I've worked with dozens of job sups on all kinds of jobs and been one myself.

The job sup has a tough job; he can't do it fast enough to satisfy anyone, and a million things go wrong all the time and he has to deal with it. It's a high pressure headache. You just don't belong in a construction environment; it's not like it used to be, and never will. Think of it like being a cop in Miami; it takes special skills to survive.

There may be times when you can get into their world and hunt smaller jobs, but the best way is to be aware of that world and approach them from that direction. I am completely at home in that world, and know what to say in order to connect with a construction sup, but I'd put my chances at about 20% in getting on a job like that.

Please have respect for the multi-million dollar business activity going on there, and the man whose responsibility it is to complete that job on time and on budget.

I have a very firm grasp of RE/property law in a dozen plus states, have full respect for business activity/construction projects and sometimes even wear the white hat myself.

The reason I advise against asking a PM, GC or supervisor of any type is because rules are rules and with every company I've ever worked, the rule has always been to never give anyone permission to do anything.

The unwritten rules are different and we'll often look the other way if someone appears to be harmless and stays out of the way.

My advice in an earlier post was solid and included staying away from busy sites and never getting in anyone's way. Respecting the property and project was implied and shouldn't require discussion as it is a matter of common sense.

Regardless, it completely acceptable under the law to obtain permission from anyone working on a site because (unless specifically stated otherwise) when someone is given permission or hired to be on a property they are also given the authority to allow others onto the property.

 

[lost]

Tom...I'm thinking, if those two guys are there this weekend, I might, say I might drop in and ask if it's safe to join them. Admit I'm not up to date on my county laws. But I am up to date on that farm they are working. It's been a corn field and Soy Bean field for the past 50-70 years. Maybe 1 or 200 years before that. Hundred's of yards from the nearest house or building. Can't imagine what they expect to find. The areas I've hunted like that produced a good walk in the sunshine and maybe a machine part.

No, on second thought, they are there illegally no matter the in they might have so I might drop by just to ask if they are finding anything. That is if the gate isn't locked and there are no trespassing signs up. No signs there today. Oh, and like you, I welcome any detectors, or just folks who approach me while detecting. Picked up some pretty good leads that way.