Dinner with Doctors

[tonykidd]

I just arrived home from an intimate dinner with 3 archaeologists, 2 of them full professors (George Washington University and University of Arizona) and the other a field archaeologist (Florida State University). I spent two hours picking their brains and exchanging stories. At one point it became clear that the circles they run in, compared to the average citizen, have a knowledge that is typically only shared between them. Their education in human interaction as related to anthropology allows them to think and make deductions based upon a different criteria than laymen. Their knowledge, however, is generally circular since they seem to only preach to the same choir. I commented about this, in that some of the things they take for granted when talking with a colleague are foreign to us as avocationals. To a person they agreed, and noted that public interest in our hobby is dying. Collectors and avocationals have accounted for the majority of finds in America, and as the interest dies, more ancient history will die with it.
Anyway, I learned a few things, and unlearned a few things as well. It's amazing how a different perspective, especially an educated one, can cause your thinking to become more broad. We tend to box ourselves in in much the same way, even on a forum such as this. New ideas and theories aren't always accepted because the longstanding beliefs are hard to break. I highly recommend diversifying your information sources and peer group when it comes to all things Indian; you just may be pleasantly surprised.

 

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[tnmudman]

thank you for sharing could i press you for an anecdote

 

[sandchip]

Boy, are you opening Pandora's box here! I don't know where to start but it really knocks the scab off with me. GW University credentials don't impress me at all. A history major there isn't even required to study American History for crying out loud. Their ivory tower attitude toward us is nothing new, with many archaeologists being responsible for lobbying for the restrictive laws passed in many states against collecting. Like banning anybody from picking up an arrowhead on a sandbar on Georgia rivers, with the idiotic contention that everything in the river is in its original context. Hell! Nothing in the Flint is in the same place it was yesterday, much less 5000 years ago. Little wonder that public interest in our hobby is dying. They're trying to legislate us out of existence. Just keep your nose to the grindstone and pay your taxes. Take the 4.5 million artifact collection at UGA, curated with our tax dollars, but accessible only to registered archaeologists and not to general public. Or check out the displays at the Ocmulgee NHS in Macon. Same old tired, meager displays that were there 30 years ago while the good, no, great stuff lies collecting dust in the basement. And then, they're about to spend millions to expand the park, with more nature trails. Whoopdee-effin-doo. Thanks, but I'll take a walk in my own woods. What a crying shame.

Don't take this as a blanket condemnation of archaeologists. There are a few, very few, who somehow avoided the indoctrination in school, and still actually see the value in maintaining a healthy relationship with collectors, who as you mentioned, are responsible for probably 90% of all archaeological sites discovered in America.

The government outlaws all that is wholesome and healthful, but then laments that the nation's children are obese, spending all their time in the digital world. What the hell do they expect?

I gotta hush. This whole subject just p***es me the hell off. And no, I've never been in any kind of trouble with the law if you're wondering from whither stems my ire. That's why the laws infuriate me, because I abide by them.

 

[tonykidd]

I understand your frustrations, Sandchip, and have the same myself. I too have watched as restrictions have unfolded over the past few decades. Nothing is going to change, and the laws are not going to loosen simply because these are heartstring-type laws that will never be repealed; sympathy toward Indians and their plight has been a major driver of this.
I know the game, and I stay away from "academic" archaeologists who espouse their theories from a podium in a classroom. All three of these guys are what I call "diggers", meaning they have gotten their hands dirty. They associate with collectors and understand the contributions of avocationals. I wasn't trying to impress anyone with credentials, just background. They are all here to dive on a Clovis site in a river, in a spot that is 30 feet down and visibility is nearly zero. "Academics" they are not. We discussed the imposition of the government regarding artifact hunting laws, and while they recognize that this is an unsustainable resource, they also recognize that without collectors and avocationals their careers would be spent researching historical documents rather than prehistorical artifacts.
So, my tact is a little different than yours. I try my best to stay aboveboard and on the right side of the law as well, but realize that these archaeologists have access to resources that I never will, and I do my best to leverage those resources whenever I can. It's amazing what some beer and pizza can accomplish with the right folks. Instead of a Pandora's Box, I think I opened a very important line of communication and information, but I feel your pain.

 

[tonykidd]

By the way, whereabouts in Georgia are you? We sometimes hunt around Camilla and Mitchell County, but also Decatur, Taylor, Clay and Randolph counties.

 

[rock]

@ tonykidd so did you show them your finds?

 

[ptsofnc]

ALL OF THE ABOVE! I have so many questions I would like to ask archaeologists, or want to show/tell them some of my findings (on my property), but I hesitate because of the "disdain" they might feel towards me. I even invited several arch'ts a couple of years ago to my sites (on my property) with the intentions of stopping what I had been doing (which wasn't much at that point, but enough to know the significance), stepping aside and letting them do whatever they wish. They weren't interested and since then I can only say that what I've found verifies a lot of their findings at investigated sites done by archaeologists. I have lots of questions and some interesting findings, but still hesitant to contact.

 

[tonykidd]

@ tonykidd so did you show them your finds?

Yes. They offered some insights and some different points of view I hadn't considered, especially involving trade. Very good stuff.

 

[tonykidd]

ALL OF THE ABOVE! I have so many questions I would like to ask archaeologists, or want to show/tell them some of my findings (on my property), but I hesitate because of the "disdain" they might feel towards me. I even invited several arch'ts a couple of years ago to my sites (on my property) with the intentions of stopping what I had been doing (which wasn't much at that point, but enough to know the significance), stepping aside and letting them do whatever they wish. They weren't interested and since then I can only say that what I've found verifies a lot of their findings at investigated sites done by archaeologists. I have lots of questions and some interesting findings, but still hesitant to contact.

One of the main problems with involving archaeologists is funding. As government employees, whether through the state or University, their time has to be accounted for in some fashion. I've never had an experience like you've described as far as "disdain", but then again I make sure that any archs I deal with go through a serious vetting process. There are some bad ones out there just like in every other profession. From my experiences, I can tell you that unless you have something that they deem culturally significant, they will rarely bother visiting. I met with these guys for specific reasons, in that one of them is an expert on notched points as well as Paleo and early Archaic relics, and one of the others specializes in Paleo and underwater excavations. I've found what I believe is a submerged Paleo site and wanted some advice. I would recommend getting to know a couple of them personally as well as professionally before entrusting them to visit a site in any case, but it has been my experience more often than not that they only visit if the site is a big deal. Money talks for them, but just in the sense that someone has to pay for their time.

 

[sandchip]

Well, if they are so collector friendly, they could start by lobbying to loosen river hunting with an isolated finds program. Anti-collector archs lobbied for the laws in place now and have fought every attempt to implement an IFP. Pro-collector archs could lobby to have them changed in regards to artifacts clearly out of context in rivers. Why don't they? You might consider putting them on the spot and see just how far they are willing to go. You can hang with them all you like and in the meantime, I'll hold my breath.

 

[tonykidd]

Well, if they are so collector friendly, they could start by lobbying to loosen river hunting with an isolated finds program. Anti-collector archs lobbied for the laws in place now and have fought every attempt to implement an IFP. Pro-collector archs could lobby to have them changed in regards to artifacts clearly out of context in rivers. Why don't they? You might consider putting them on the spot and see just how far they are willing to go. You can hang with them all you like and in the meantime, I'll hold my breath.

It's all personal preference among them as well. The three I met with last night, as well as some others that I know, believe that relics need to be discovered, not hidden. I don't think many would take a stand unless they could get a consensus, because they are, after all, funded by the government in some capacity and wouldn't fall on their own swords if it meant losing their job. I've had some admonish me for even finding and removing artifacts from private property, but I generally steer clear of those.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just trying to work with what I've got in order to maximize my resources when I need information. I too think that the protected waterways laws are BS, and criminalize what should be a great pastime and would eventually lead to some great discoveries. It's the reality, though, so in the meantime I'm being opportunistic when I can.

 

[sandchip]

... Money talks for them, but just in the sense that someone has to pay for their time.

That says it all, and therein lies the hypocrisy. So many archaeological firms are hired to conduct mandatory surveys on land to be developed, sites that have been known by collectors for decades to be important sites. Suddenly, archaeological findings show nothing special, development is green-lighted and yet another important site is totally destroyed. If we could follow that money, we'd find just how much principles and history are really worth to some people.

Not fussing at you, TK. Just saying what's on my mind.

 

[tonykidd]

That says it all, and therein lies the hypocrisy. So many archaeological firms are hired to conduct mandatory surveys on land to be developed, sites that have been known by collectors for decades to be important sites. Suddenly, archaeological findings show nothing special, development is green-lighted and yet another important site is totally destroyed. If we could follow that money, we'd find just how much principles and history are really worth to some people.

Not fussing at you, TK. Just saying what's on my mind.

My man, we talked about that very thing last night, about how you can hire a private archaeologist to "study" the area and determine that there are no significant sites. Happens all the time here. A toll road, the first ever built in this county or area, right through the heart of a huge plantation. Another development, on another huge plantation, just greenlighted and begun. I know from at least two people that the mounds that were there when they were kids 50 years ago are gone.
Like I said, money talks.

 

[tonykidd]

thank you for sharing could i press you for an anecdote

A good one I heard last night:
Two of these guys were diving at the Page-Ladson site on the Aucilla River in Florida, just outside of Tallahassee (for an interesting sidebar, see this Stone Knife and Mastodon Bones Point to Earlier Arrival of First Americans).

They were using a 6" dredge on the bottom, 30 feet down in nearly zero-visibility water. The guy holding the dredge looks down at his left arm and sees a huge Cottonmoth Moccasin coiling around it and slithering toward his hand. He immediately lifts the dredge with one hand and shoves his arm in. The snake detaches due to the suction, travels 30 feet upward through the dredge hose, and flies into the recovery barge where the other archaeologists are resting/sunbathing/relaxing and watching the dredge waste in case something interesting pops out.
Needless to say, the most interesting thing that popped out was a snake - and an extremely pissed off snake to boot.
It turns out that they not only discovered the earliest usage of Clovis tools in the U.S., but also discovered the quickest way to empty a barge of human inhabitants.
They all jumped in and avoided disaster.

 

[joshuaream]

U of Arizona person, was it Brendan? I met him at the First Floridians conference back in 2015 in Monticello.

 

[BearCreek]

I've read several archeological studies for projects near our home and was shocked. Apparently there must be some magic large number of artifacts that must be found in order to protect an area from being turned into a boat ramp, toll bridge, or whatever. I'd venture to the average person who is not a collector doesn't know the laws for their state or perhaps that there are any laws at all. I searched them out myself. Better communication is needed. I agree there is a lot of history to be shared and imagine that there are important historical sites that will never be shared due to the current reality. it's awful to know there are collections that only the priviliged few can see. Imagine the interest that could be generated in many areas of education if you could take students on a dig or allow them to hold something made thousands of years ago. Side note - would have loved to see an in situ video of the snake landing on the boat lol!

 

[tnmudman]

haha thats funny very funny thank you and for the link also i will definetely check that out

 

[ivan salis]

there is but one favor of koolaid with archies -- collectors bad...be careful not to drink it when its 3 on 1 ....

 

[ivan salis]

I found Indain village site --with early Spanish trade beads from 1702 era (when the british came thru and wiped out any Spanish friendly Indain villiages and Spanish mission sites) and even earlier stone hand made beads (coral--rare not many known in Florida) ... at a place called Goffinsville park * in Nassau county ,Florida --well the county wanted a new fishing boat launching pier with paved parking lot --it was just a dirt park with nothing "special" --except the fact it had a pre contact village site on it ... a private archie group was hired -and green lighted the "project"===now all that remains of that village is the items that I collected thru the years --one female state of Florida archie who I showed them to and told the story to said with a sniff of distain --well at least their safe from looters now (meaning me) ---my reply was that since they were putting in a parking lot they dug several feet deep to put in a pea gravel limestone base and trucked the dirt out to some land fill area --so yah its real safe now...

 

[Ici]

I just arrived home from an intimate dinner with 3 archaeologists, 2 of them full professors (George Washington University and University of Arizona) and the other a field archaeologist (Florida State University). I spent two hours picking their brains and exchanging stories. At one point it became clear that the circles they run in, compared to the average citizen, have a knowledge that is typically only shared between them. Their education in human interaction as related to anthropology allows them to think and make deductions based upon a different criteria than laymen. Their knowledge, however, is generally circular since they seem to only preach to the same choir. I commented about this, in that some of the things they take for granted when talking with a colleague are foreign to us as avocationals. To a person they agreed, and noted that public interest in our hobby is dying. Collectors and avocationals have accounted for the majority of finds in America, and as the interest dies, more ancient history will die with it.
Anyway, I learned a few things, and unlearned a few things as well. It's amazing how a different perspective, especially an educated one, can cause your thinking to become more broad. We tend to box ourselves in in much the same way, even on a forum such as this. New ideas and theories aren't always accepted because the longstanding beliefs are hard to break. I highly recommend diversifying your information sources and peer group when it comes to all things Indian; you just may be pleasantly surprised.

What things did you unlearn? I like how you are open minded and not afraid to learn something new.