discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrLs

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

RDT---

Members Please Refrain
from Posting long Unbroken
Lines of These ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

or anything Else

They spread the Threads, causing
us to have to Scroll Right & Left
to read treads.

Or hit Quote.

In the future My remedy
just may be deletion of the Members Posts,
or Entire Threads

Jeff

Directly followed by---

~~~snicker~~~

Does it make sense as to what I was actually referring to now?















(Double snicker, chortle, and guffaw!)

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

HIO J_P: that gentleman was considered a genius in certain respects, I agree in regards to
myself I is, I is, shadup up prong snicker snicker hehehhehe

Seriously, are you daring to try to tell me that there is no Pellucidar, no John, no Lovely princess
for me to win ?? That would be going tooo far !

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[fenixdigger]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Well Rudy, you know what they say," Never less alone than when alone"

I am the man,,,,,,

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Excellent post J_P, to answer some of your valid questions review post no 208.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

EE 9u posted -->Does it make sense as to what I was actually referring to now?
************

Like shaddup !! ya bum snifff


Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. snicker cheeken, had to get jeff to back you eh? Actually I really do apologize Guys
GALS, now shaddup E liminated in the E volution chain .








ee

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

J_P, what has apparently been overlooked is that we are not concerned with 'texture' but a feeling of a drag or slipperiness.

this differentiation is important as you will presently see.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

HIO J_P: that gentleman was considered a genius in certain respects, I agree in regards to
myself I si, I is, shadup up prong snicker snicker hehehhehe

Seriously, are you daring to try to tell me that there is no Pellucidar, no John, no Lovely princess
for me to win ?? That would be going tooo far !

Don Jose de La Mancha

Of course not, MR. Don....

Not at all.
According to the last rumors I heard, Pellucidar was recently sighted by sawmill workers who saw her near the headwaters of the Rio Mayo chasing away menacing sasquach invaders.

Best wishes,
J_P

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

J_P, what has apparently been overlooked is that we are not concerned with 'texture' but a feeling of a drag or slipperiness.

this differentiation is important as you will presently see.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hi Mr. Don,

If this differentiation of slipperiness is important, then it is interfering with the test method you suggested. Looking back to your solution in post 208, you suggested:

"...simply stretch clear plastic evenly over the squares.
and secure it with whatever on the under surface".

The problem with this method is it allows any person to identify the different sample chips by feeling for the pieces of tape securing the plastic to the back, which will invariably have slight differences. It also does not stop the person from feeling for the stiffness or thickness of surface coating, or slight blemishes in texture that could be felt through the plastic film or on the surface of the plastic film, including wrinkles that could develop on some chip samples. In short, it is a sloppy testing method that allows a lot of room for a magician to exploit tricks to gain an unfair advantage in determining different paint chips without actually sensing the colors from his skin.

A second fatal problem with your current need to feel of drag or slipperiness is it cannot be felt from a paint color chip for the reasons I gave before -- By placing your fingertip over the color chip to feel the slipperiness, you are blocking and sealing out the light which could fall on the chip and cause a color to exist. Therefore you can only feel the slipperiness of the sample under a condition when it has no color coming from it. In essence, you can only feel the slipperiness of the surface as caused by the composition of the paint resins and pigment coarseness, in combination with clues given from the plastic film attached to the chip, and the stiffness of the different chips, without sensing the effects of light which do not exist under you fingertip. Light or color certainly play no part when the light and color are sealed from striking the surface where your finger covers it. Placing a thin plastic film over the color chip only serves to add another layer of plastic to feel through before feeling the surface imperfections or stiffness of the sample.

From what I can see, there is not a need to arrange the test with opportunities that a magician would welcome to exploit and trick people into thinking he can feel colors. Again, I propose a solution to solve the dilemma of needing to feel the surface slipperiness without compromising the test.

We can use the LED example to shine a light onto a transparent surface placed over a cup or pipe. This will cause a known frequency of light color to fall on the transparent surface, and pass through it where it will strike whatever finger you place on the clear cover. If what you claim is true, then your finger will be radiated with only the light color frequency sent from the LED, and will surely have it's slipperiness and drag altered so you can feel the difference as you slide your finger across the clear cover above the LED.

If it is necessary for your finger to feel a foriegn object which has a specific color, then you can substitute the clear cover for a translucent cover that will take on the exact color that is radiated from the LED. This will allow you three distinct colors you can feel from the exact same surface. And you could add more LEDs for additional colors you might wish to test. In this manner, there is no chance you will be able to notice the difference in textures or stiffness from different paint chip surfaces. You will be feeling the exact same surface every time. And you will have a real color to feel, not a dark void under your finger that has no color.

Is there some flaw in your theory which prevents it from developing the alleged difference in slipperiness when a single surface is made to have one of the specified colors such as blue, green, or red?

Best wishes,
J_P

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

RDT---

Are you planning on crawling around the mountains, feeling the ground?

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

<-- Thinking Mr. Don is scurrying to the nearest Radio Shack to get a multicolor LED
so he can check to see if it really works or not before posting a reply...

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

While we wait for Mr. Don to return from Radio Shack, I can tell you a story about how I once witnessed a phenomenon that seems to show he is right....

I did notice that some colors feel slippier than others...

It was a hot summer day when I got out of my dad's car and walked across the asphalt parking lot. I could see where they poured tar over the cracks in the pavement last winter, and I noticed that when I walked over these tar patches they felt soft under my shoes. I could slide my foot over the tar patches and feel the tar moving, and even sticking to the bottom of my shoe. Then I scraped my shoe on other asphalt that did not have the tar patching on it to remove the tar from my shoe. After scraping off the tar, I relaized the tar was a dark black color, compared to the asphalt which averaged a gray color while showing the surface of a lot of little embedded pebbles. It seems to me that on that day I observed black was slipperier than the gray asphalt where I tried to slide my shoe. It would appear that Mr. Don is right.

But then I was never able to find anything in any of my biology classes that attributed light sensing to shoes. Somehow, I think the shoes were responding to the viscosity difference between the hot tar and the hot asphalt composite, not to the light frequency my shoes were sensing from the tar and from the pavement. Now, if only I could find the color black in the light spectrum, I could figure out the frequency of black that causes good slipperiness..... but can't find it...

In any case, I feel certain we will soon hear some new and improved theories to explain how feeling colors will help us develop a theory that may be applicable to LRLs.


Best wishes,
J_P

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

I think the new tar slippery, because it is somewhat fluid until it sets up. After a month or so, the tar wears down, and the gravel is exposed. The gravel itself being hard, the pavement surface is kind of like sandpaper. Sort of like grout being a little lower than the tiles. Which is what you said, I think.

From the sound of RDT's remote location, if he went to Radio Shack, he will be awhile!

8)

 

[Rudy(CA)]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

While we wait for Mr. Don to return from Radio Shack, I can tell you a story about how I once witnessed a phenomenon that seems to show he is right....

I did notice that some colors feel slippier than others...

It was a hot summer day when I got out of my dad's car and walked across the asphalt parking lot. I could see where they poured tar over the cracks in the pavement last winter, and I noticed that when I walked over these tar patches they felt soft under my shoes. I could slide my foot over the tar patches and feel the tar moving, and even sticking to the bottom of my shoe. Then I scraped my shoe on other asphalt that did not have the tar patching on it to remove the tar from my shoe. After scraping off the tar, I relaized the tar was a dark black color, compared to the asphalt which averaged a gray color while showing the surface of a lot of little embedded pebbles. It seems to me that on that day I observed black was slippier than the gray asphalt where I tried to slide my shoe. It would appear that Mr. Don is right.

But then I was never able to find anything in any of my biology classes that attributed light sensing to shoes. Somehow, I think the shoes were responding to the viscosity difference between the hot tar and the hot asphalt composite, not to the light frequency my shoes were sensing from the tar and from the pavement. Now, if only I could find the color black in the light spectrum, I could figure out what frequency causes good slipperiness..... but can't find it...

In any case, I feel certain we will soon hear some new and improved theories to explain how feeling colors will help us develop a theory that may be applicable to LRLs.


Best wishes,
J_P

I think you may have something there JP ....very interesting.

If you are having problems getting black from your LCD display, you might try covering it up with electrical tape.

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

I think you may have something there JP ....very interesting.

If you are having problems getting black from your LCD display, you might try covering it up with electrical tape.

Hmmm....
Now you solved the problem... No LEDs needed.
We can use our monitors to test if our fingers can see.

There are a lot of online web pages that show different colors we can put on our screen.
Then we can rub the monitor to see how slippery it is at different colors.
Of course, you want someone else to set the screen color under your finger while you wear a blindfold so you can't see what color is on the screen.
But you could try it out on your own just to see if the screen gets slippery.

Here are some websites with a lot of colors you can put on the screen:
http://1zelda.com/tv/pics/rgb_test.jpg
http://www.walvisions.com/PattPages/walvisions__colorbar_pattern.htm
http://www.computerhope.com/htmcolor.htm

You can place your finger over any color you want while you rub the screen it to see how slippery it feels.
This should tell us if our hands can feel any difference in color.
In fact, we can start right now to find out if the finger-seeing proponents theory is correct or not, so we will know the answer before Mr. Don gets back from Radio Shack.

heheheheee

Best wishes,
J_P

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Well, I couldn't wait to find out if I can feel the slipperyness change when I change colors.
So I opened a browser and went to this site to get some colors to experiment with: http://1zelda.com/tv/pics/rgb_test.jpg

I saw a fat red, green and blue stripe across the browser. The right side is bright, and the left side is dark. So I started rubbing on the red stripe at the top right where it is bright. After a few minutes I got used to the feel of the screen. Then I moved my finger down and continued rubbing on the green stripe. It did not feel any more or less slippery. But it did feel different. It felt like there were two small bumps in the green stripe. But I couldn't see any bumps.

Is this the telltale way we can "see" colors that Mr. Don was talking about?
I rubbed back in the red stripe, and still no bump feel there. But the green stripe definitely produces bump feelings that are repeatable.

Next I began rubbing below on the blue stripe. The blue stripe felt dusty, so I brushed off the dust and continued feeling for slipperyness. It felt the same slipperyness as the green and red stripes. But it had bump feelings also like the green stripe. Except they felt bigger, and more of them.
Hmmm.... This bears further investigation.

I moved the browser down on the screen so the bottom half was off the screen, and the green stripe was now positioned at the lower screen. Then I rubbed the green stripe, and I felt the same larger bumps as I felt when the blue stripe was there. Hmmm....

Next I moved the browser farther down on the screen until only the red stripe showed at the bottom of the screen. When I checked the red stripe with the rub test, I felt the same larger bumps as I felt when the blue stripe and green stripe was there. Hmmm....

Next, I got out a magnifying glass and made a close inspection of the lower part of my screen. After close examination, I discovered some small dried beer spots on the bottom part of the screen. So I got a damp sponge and cleaned the screen. After the screen dried, I tried the rubbing experiments again. I was not able to find any bumps or any change in the slipperiness at any of the three colors whether I rubbed in a single spot and moved the colors under my finger, or if I moved my finger to different parts of the screen to find different colors. One cool test was to rub up and down across the red, green and blue stripes to see if my finger would try to skid more in any particular color. It didn't.

Oh well, It was an hour and a half well spent. I learned whether I could train my fingers to see colors or not.
I wonder when Mr. Don will get back from Radio Shack?


Best wishes,
J_P

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

bk ya igerent bums !! to handle the color thingie you must keep an open mind and stroke 'very lightly', almost not putting on any pressure. As for needing visual light, remember we are using another form of detection. You will have to master this in order to continue since we will be entering the realm where present conventional instruments will no longer indicate for us..

Remember your eyes are one form of detection, you are 'training' your fingers to be another. As a result, different parameters are involved.

Remember Dr Land's infamous experiments and successful commercial production of full color spectrum with two frequencies, or simply producing one color with the proper frequencies.

Red for example, can be produced by either additive or subtractive frequencies. The end frequency is the one that you are after, no matter how it was obtained.

As we go along you will understand why I say conventional radio formulae does not apply.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

All I know about combining colors to produce another color is that there are two different methods for the two different mediums.

The first one is what most people are familiar with, and that is with the reflective medium, such as paints. The surface determines what color will be reflected. So this concerns reflected light, and assumes that the light shining onto the surface is full spectrum, and contains all the possible colors. With this method, there are the three primary colors, red, blue, and yellow. Plus black and white. And these are the reflected colors of, and are dependant upon, the surface reflectivity characteristics of the material used.

Orange is the combination of red and yellow (reflective substance), green is the combination of blue and yellow, and violet is the combination of blue and red. All other colors in between are unequal combinations of those, except that brown is the combination of all three. Other shades use the inclusion of black and/or white. Grey being the black and white only combination. Pink being red and white, as with the pastels. Darkening of colors is the inclusion of black.

The second medium is light, itself. When lighting a stage, the colors of the lights used are not the same as those used in the surface material for reflecting light. If I remember correctly, the primary colors of the lights used are red, green, and blue. This is referred to as simply RGB, and is used in that form on computer monitors and the newer TVs, and the VCR and DVD players, to indicate a separate signal for each color. All three of these light-source colors together create white. This can be seen in action when using a photo editing program, in the color control panel.

Dr. Land's method of producing the full spectrum using only two colors, which I have not heard of, I would presume uses harmonics or subharmonics. These harmonics are of lesser power than the original source, however, so I'm not sure how that would be compensated for, but if the Polaroid camera is based on that, as you brought up in the "Cameras See Gold Indicators" topic, I imagine that there was some something which compensated for it.

So, where are you going from there, to sensing colors with the fingers, that would lead to Long Range sensing and locating?

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

bk ya igerent bums !! to handle the color thingie you must keep an open mind and stroke 'very lightly', almost not putting on any pressure. As for needing visual light, remember we are using another form of detection. You will have to master this in order to continue since we will be entering the realm where present conventional instruments will no longer indicate for us..

Remember your eyes are one form of detection, you are 'training' your fingers to be another. As a result, different parameters are involved.

Remember Dr Land's infamous experiments and successful commercial production of full color spectrum with two frequencies, or simply producing one color with the proper frequencies.

Red for example, can be produced by either additive or subtractive frequencies. The end frequency is the one that you are after, no matter how it was obtained.

As we go along you will understand why I say conventional radio formulae does not apply.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Ummm... Mr. Don,

We all have open minds. We looked at a number of ways we can attempt to feel colors. And we discovered it is not possible to have a color on a surface when the shadow from our fingers is covering the surface to prevent light from falling on it. The very concept of a surface having a color depends on light falling on the surface, which cannot happen where the shadow of our finger is stopping the light from reaching the surface, even if it is stroking it very lightly.

Therefore we must find a way to feel a color while our finger is stoking the surface, but is not able to block the light. A computer monitor is a perfect way to accomplish this, and it satisfies your requirements, as well as the requirements of physics which says there must be light at a surface in order for that surface to have a color.

Remember, the question we are talking about is if the light exists on the surface or not... We are not questioning whether we can see the color or not. In fact we expect to be blindfolded so we can't see the color in any official testing for feeling colors. Clearly, no light or color exists under your finger even at locations where you are touching lightly --- Unless you light the surface from the back side where your finger can't block the light from reaching the surface. (remember, color is a frequency of visible light, not a shadow from your finger, which is the absense of light).

I agree completely that The end frequency is the one that you are after, no matter how it was obtained.
So, in being consistent with your claim that it does not matter whether either additive or subtractive frequencies produced the light, we can use any computer monitor to use either method. In my case, I am currently using an LED monitor which has colored LEDs at the surface of the screen. So the light I am "feeling" is a fairly narrow band of pure color when I attempt to feel the color of red blue or green. But I can set the screen to have various additive frequency colors such as yellow, violet, and a lot of others from the same monitor. Not surprisingly, this same principle works also for old style CRT monitors as well as for placing colored lights behind a translucent surface. We can even put colored papers and a white light to illuminate them and reflect to the back side of a translucent surface to get subtractive colors that we feel with our fingers.

So there you have it Mr. Don,
We have solved the problem of paint chips which do not have any color under your fingers or elbows where you touch them, and we don't even need to go to the paint store to start your experiments. We can do it right here and now on our computer monitors with the help of a color test website like these ones:
http://www.stoletje.com/monitor/barve.html
http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~loarie/test.colors.gif
http://www.idollarstore.com/colortest/color_test.htm

Thanks to your good comprehension that either pure colors, additive colors or subtractive colors all will produce the same result, we finally solved the problem of getting a color to the surface we are testing instead of having it blocked from the surface by our finger shadows. And best of all, we can conduct the tests without any magician tricks where we are simply feeling the texture, stiffness and blemishes of colorless paint chips instead of feeling the monitor surface where there really are some colors under our fingers.


Best wishes,
J_P

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

HI J_P it could have simply been stated 'emissive or reflective colors. The paint chips do work for training purposes. Lightly stroking allows sufficient defused color to have a reaction.


You are going to love the next step snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. the actual purpose of all of this is simply to develop a system / manner of actually determining if there 'is' a reaction, how much, and why. we will get into biological indicators later. After all if you can't show a physical result what can you show to yourself, or possibly to others, that wouldn't be classified as a hallucination to preconceived result.?

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

HI J_P it could have simply been stated 'emissive or reflective colors. The paint chips do work for training purposes. Lightly stroking allows sufficient defused color to have a reaction.


You are going to love the next step snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. the actual purpose of all of this is simply to develop a system / manner of actually determining if there 'is' a reaction, how much, and why. we will get into biological indicators later. After all if you can't show a physical result what can you show to yourself, or possibly to others, that wouldn't be classified as a hallucination to preconceived result.?

Excellent, Mr. Don,

If the actual purpose of all of this is simply to develop a system / manner of actually determining if there 'is' a reaction, how much, and why..... then we need to start with a good way to feel the reaction of color, not a dark space under our finger. As long as you are in agreement that it does not matter whether the color is emmissive or reflective, then we can dispense with the magicians tricks of collecting paint chips that have no color under our fingers, and move forward to using our PC monitors that really do have colors under our fingers. We can even put pictures of paint chips on our screen to make it seem like we are cheating with pieces of paper that have telltale blemishes we can feel... (see image below and rub your fingers "lightly" on them).

I am ready with the rest of the forum to proceed with your test in a manner that avoids the magicians tricks of using paint chips from some paint store, and uses real light that we know exists even under the shadows of our fingers on the PC monitor.

P.S. Is it beginning to seem that Mr. Don does not want anyone to test his example for any color source except from a painted surface that has no color under the dark spot where we touch our finger?

Best wishes,
J_P