Doc Thorne gold...Is it an easier legend than the LDM

[Gregory E. Davis]

Gentlemen: I thought you might be interested in the following. After many years of searching I finally located the obituary of Abram D. Thorne. Sierra County Advocate, (Kingston, New Mexico), Friday, November 22, 1895, Page 3, col. 6. "Dr. thorn, an old resident of this county, and known to all settlers, died Thursday at his residence in Lemitar, and was buried yesterday. He practiced medicine in this county nearly thirty years ago". Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Greg,

Kinda puts the lie to even the 1890 story, how the reporter supposedly got the interview with Thorne, some time before Doc Thorne "had died". As you point out, he didn't die until 1895.

Attached is the newspaper clipping Greg refers to, and also Thorne's catholic baptism record from Albuquerque. It has his date and place of birth, along with his father's and mother's name.

For anyone who wants to research Doc Thorne, this baptism record will give you all you need to find his family story.

I'm fairly certain Sims Ely had found this info, including the baptism, long prior to getting his book published.

 

[Doc4261]

Thanks, Doc...but take a look at a follow-up letter from Cooley, after he had reached Ft. McDowell and moved on to Swilling's Ranch:

View attachment 1948027

It's clear, beyond any reasonable doubt, that he was searching in the area of Sombrero Butte. He wasn't searching in or near the Supes:

EDIT: Researching the Apache, and also the soldiers Cooley encountered, may SEEM like a rabbit hole. However, knowing who those people were, where they lived, and what they were doing, gives a more clear indication of exactly where Cooley was during the search. This info, taken with his own description of where he was looking/wanted to look for Doc Thorne's gold, makes it absolutely clear that Cooley was NOT searching the Supes.

We can thank later authors, who knew better, for trying to associate Doc Thorne's gold with the Supes. In other words, they were just making it up to spruce up their theories and stories.

Good place to search. Jesuits were there for a reason. My old guide spent some time up cherry area, before he went awol last Nov.

 

[wrmickel1]

Thanks, Doc...but take a look at a follow-up letter from Cooley, after he had reached Ft. McDowell and moved on to Swilling's Ranch:

View attachment 1948027

It's clear, beyond any reasonable doubt, that he was searching in the area of Sombrero Butte. He wasn't searching in or near the Supes:

EDIT: Researching the Apache, and also the soldiers Cooley encountered, may SEEM like a rabbit hole. However, knowing who those people were, where they lived, and what they were doing, gives a more clear indication of exactly where Cooley was during the search. This info, taken with his own description of where he was looking/wanted to look for Doc Thorne's gold, makes it absolutely clear that Cooley was NOT searching the Supes.

We can thank later authors, who knew better, for trying to associate Doc Thorne's gold with the Supes. In other words, they were just making it up to spruce up their theories and stories.

Potbelly

Your map confirms Waltz said the salt river mountains and weavers needle was called weavers needle and Superstition Mountain was in the salt river mountain range. Just like Waltz said. Your map proves Julia's story and actions and make Dick Holmes manuscript garbage.

Babymick1

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Potbelly

Your map confirms Waltz said the salt river mountains and weavers needle was called weavers needle and Superstition Mountain was in the salt river mountain range. Just like Waltz said. Your map proves Julia's story and actions and make Dick Holmes manuscript garbage.

Babymick1

Either that, or it proves whoever made up all those silly clues had access to the same map? Take your pick

I've missed ya, Mick.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Jim: You may want to translate that document into English. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[wrmickel1]

Either that, or it proves whoever made up all those silly clues had access to the same map? Take your pick

I've missed ya, Mick.

Potbelly

Look at your map it's filled with names and places all over the area. Yet Waltz never mentioned one. Now I post a pic and mentioned the wok in, Dave new nothing of them and you knew the wok in and a tourist new of granite peak. But Dave did say he spent alot of time in there and can tell you about mines in there and the general area of it's location. Yet Waltz mentioned nothing by name. How strange is that and why. He stayed on the fringe of the range and never crossed the salt river or he would have said so. He mentioned Superstition Mt. Weavers Needle and three red hills. Things he new like Dave after years in there.

Babymick1 The way the human mind works.

 

[Rando Wendt]

who found this cave, are there any photos, or would you care to share rough location. thanks in advance

I found this cave with a friend. No pictures. No camera. Was raised in the valley since 1959. Heard all the stories. Knew a few of the story tellers as well. Fami!y members of the Apache San Carlos tribe. Somewhat different perspective than most white men.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Potbelly

Look at your map it's filled with names and places all over the area. Yet Waltz never mentioned one. Now I post a pic and mentioned the wok in, Dave new nothing of them and you knew the wok in and a tourist new of granite peak. But Dave did say he spent alot of time in there and can tell you about mines in there and the general area of it's location. Yet Waltz mentioned nothing by name. How strange is that and why. He stayed on the fringe of the range and never crossed the salt river or he would have said so. He mentioned Superstition Mt. Weavers Needle and three red hills. Things he new like Dave after years in there.

Babymick1 The way the human mind works.

Can't say I disagree, Mick. All I can tell you is I have no idea what Waltz actually said, no idea where his mine was.

 

[wrmickel1]

Can't say I disagree, Mick. All I can tell you is I have no idea what Waltz actually said, no idea where his mine was.

Potbelly

He did say, he told Julia, Gorge looked in one area, Rinehart another and the big three in another. Dick, Brownie and Clay. Julia stayed in only one place. Julia was the only one with the directions, she fed disinformation to the others. That's why you have four first hand people searching four different places.

Babymick1

 

[coazon de oro]

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim: You may want to translate that document into English. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

The relevant info is: "On the 4th of June (1875 as indicated at top of page), baptized "Abram Thorns" (sic) of the town of Spafford (NY, as indicated in left margin), born 7 May 1826"...(Abraham was 49 at the time, and married a younger woman named Pabla (Paula) Gonzales, which may explain his getting baptized and converting to the Catholic Church under the Archdiocese of Santa Fe).

Parents noted were Stephen (Thorne) and Maria De Graffe.

Stephen was a prominent Quaker and land owner in the Finger Lakes region of NY, where Abraham and his older brother Isaac were born. Maria passed away while Isaac and Abraham were young, and Stephen remarried, having several other children. Isaac and Abraham stayed and farmed their father's land into their early 20's.

Isaac joined the gold rush to CA. Other family members followed.

Stephen's second wife passed away shortly after three of his sons (including Abraham) had relocated from NY to CA. Stephen followed his sons to CA and became a prominent orchard owner. His two sons Isaac Newton Thorne (a noted lawyer) and Walter Scott Thorne (A prominent surgeon) stayed in CA. Land records from NY indicate Stephen was leasing out his fairly massive farmland holdings in NY, while he lived and prospered in CA.

Abraham appears to have stayed in the San Jose and SF areas well into the mid-1860's. By the late 1860's, he was living at what would become his permanent home, in Lemitar NM.

Abraham was never an Army doctor, and was never associated with Fort McDowell in any way (as many of the stories claim). He did care for a few soldiers in NM after they had been shot. This was in NM, not AZ. He billed the Army for it, the paperwork for which still exists. However, one of Abraham's nephews did later serve as an Army doctor during WWI.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Potbelly

He did say, he told Julia, ....

That may be, but how do you know what Waltz told Julia? I really don't care which camp people are in (Holmes or Julia or ?), I'm just saying that stories about what Waltz supposedly told Julia, are no more provable than stories about what Waltz supposedly told Holmes. I don't know why you think that the Holmes account is "garbage" and the Juila account is what you believe to be truth. Just asking, is all. Not saying you're right or wrong.

You also say that Julia was the only one with directions. Holmes had directions too, as you know. Not sure what you're getting at.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Good place to search. Jesuits were there for a reason. My old guide spent some time up cherry area, before he went awol last Nov.

Doc, what happened to your guide? Has he returned from being AWOL, I hope?

I'm not sure about Jesuits being up there, but I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about this area, it kinda makes sense but in a backwards way.

I don't buy the "8 years in captivity" story, nor do I think it's very likely Thorne would have been picked up by Indians near Gila Bend, then taken into the Sierra Ancha country. This means he would've been grabbed by Yavapais, maybe raiding Tontos, and taken to the lands of the Pinal...by the same band? OK, but I just don't see that happening. Doesn't compute.

The stories seem accurate in that, as a Quaker, Thorne would've never raised a hand against any man. They were pacifists, friends to all men. Nor would he have subscribed to racial extermination policies, or thought himself above anyone. A doctor, IMO, is a natural occupation for someone with that world-view, in America, in those times.

So if he were taken captive by Indians, I don't think he would have resisted much by trying to fight them off. I don't think he would have shown any fear either. If any of his companions were murdered, it may have angered him but I don't think he would've tried to avenge them or shown any physical hostility to those who had done it. He'd probably be more likely to pray. That type of violence would be out of character for a Quaker.

Given where Thorne lived, we can be safe in assuming he knew many Apaches from many bands, and most likely treated their injuries and ailments. Most of the old stories have Thorne coming from California, along the Gila, to either Ft McDowell or back east. What makes more sense to me, what if Thorne was actually traveling DOWN the Gila from NM, to return to family in CA? What if the stories just got his travel backwards? Easy mistake to make. He would've started by going through the lands of friendly Apaches. But after passing through that country he would have entered the lands of the Pinals, and he wouldn't have been very welcome, to say the least. I can see a scenario where he may have been grabbed, treated one or more Pinals, seen some gold, and spared indefinitely until he was able to walk over to another band of Indians (not necessarily Navajo's, but still closer to his home), and from there would've easily made his way back to NM, as told in the stories. If his home was in NM, it seems a natural place to go, especially as it was in the other direction from hostile Indians But the stories seem to agree that he ended up in NM.

Speculation, for sure...but such a scenario seems to fit the area of Sombrero Butte better. While it's very possible that Cooley was searching the wrong area, and should've been closer to or in the Supes, it seems unlikely Cooley would've gotten it so wrong. I think he was too familiar with NM and AZ to be that far off, given that he was a contemporary of Thorne's and quite possibly knew him well. That being said, he never found the gold...Banta thought it had been a fool's errand, and McCarthy said he'd found it and it was just a pile of Pyrites.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

The probate to the estate of Stephen Thorne is located at San Jose, California. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Jim: in 1976 or 1977 my brother, Frank Davis, went to Lemitar and visited with the relatives of Maria Thorne. He also interview an very elderly woman who remember Thorne when she was a small child. I also when to Lemitar to visit with the relative in October 1979. The elderly woman has passed away by then however I was able to talk with the remaining relatives of Maria. They all swore that the story of Dr. Thorne being a captive of the Indians was true. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim: in 1976 or 1977 my brother, Frank Davis, went to Lemitar and visited with the relatives of Maria Thorne. He also interview an very elderly woman who remember Thorne when she was a small child. I also when to Lemitar to visit with the relative in October 1979. The elderly woman has passed away by then however I was able to talk with the remaining relatives of Maria. They all swore that the story of Dr. Thorne being a captive of the Indians was true. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Greg, were they able to shed any more light on when this might have occurred (Indian captivity)? Many thanks, Jim

 

[wrmickel1]

That may be, but how do you know what Waltz told Julia? I really don't care which camp people are in (Holmes or Julia or ?), I'm just saying that stories about what Waltz supposedly told Julia, are no more provable than stories about what Waltz supposedly told Holmes. I don't know why you think that the Holmes account is "garbage" and the Juila account is what you believe to be truth. Just asking, is all. Not saying you're right or wrong.

You also say that Julia was the only one with directions. Holmes had directions too, as you know. Not sure what you're getting at.

Well Potbelly let's compare the two, See who had directions. Julia's actions were all based on directions. She sold everything followed a trail made it to the mountain and weavers needle and never crossed the salt river and never looked for a mine in the streambed. Holmes directions are mostly based on times he followed Waltz.
Not to mention Holmes clues followed Julia's Actions 80 years later. Hell of a long time between the two.

Babymick1

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Well Potbelly let's compare the two, See who had directions. Julia's actions were all based on directions. She sold everything followed a trail made it to the mountain and weavers needle and never crossed the salt river and never looked for a mine in the streambed. Holmes directions are mostly based on times he followed Waltz.
Not to mention Holmes clues followed Julia's Actions 80 years later. Hell of a long time between the two.

Babymick1

Mick,

OK, I think I get what you mean. I agree on the Julia part about where she went. I also agree that the Holmes directions seem to be based on when he supposedly followed Waltz. There could be many reasons for that. One is that it's the truth. But I have no idea.

It seems you're asserting that Holmes had nothing, and the Holmes directions were derived long after the fact? That they were based on Julia's actions? I don't see a connection there.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Jim: The answer is not really. The family only knew that he had been held by the Indians for a number of years. Greg