England old unknown find

cerebus · Dec 10, 2017

Found on a farm field in the colchester area. Have never had a positive ID. Has an interesting circle, line, and maybe leaf design. To me it resembles a bul. There is no design on the back. The back has a hole where it would of attached to something else. It is probably my favourite find for some strange reason lol. Thx for any help

cerebus · Dec 18, 2017

Sorry late reply, have been out of town on a kids hockey tournament lol. I am perfectly fine with you sending the pics to anybody. I will try to take some Better pics. I am notoriously bad at pics though! If different angles or closeups are needed just tell what.

CRUSADER · Dec 18, 2017

cerebus said:
Sorry late reply, have been out of town on a kids hockey tournament lol. I am perfectly fine with you sending the pics to anybody. I will try to take some Better pics. I am notoriously bad at pics though! If different angles or closeups are needed just tell what.

I've sent the pictures on & asked when they are sure of the ID, they can update the export info or the PAS if they put it on there.

Using a bull's head on a vessel (I first said bucket, as many are called bucket mounts) was not uncommon. These probably had ritual meaning whilst doing a religious act. The 2 birds heads is what makes it unusual to me, as they are up-side-down & not normally present on others. Also the fixing is not the same as others. However, looking at these photo's I now get an idea. If you rest the 90 degree angle of the back piece on the top of the vessel, you can use the downwards slot on a piece of iron that fixes to the vessel & the little hole can carry the handle to the opposite side where the mirror image fitting was attached.

pepperj · Dec 18, 2017

cerebus said:
I have the export lisence. The guy who filled out my paperwork wasn't impressed with it and called it a "medival pot leg mount". Whoever approves the export lisence didn't change the ID. Not sure how hard they scrutinize the export.

I can hear him saying that, when in doubt give it the ol' "Medieval pot leg" reference. Wonder sometimes if the export papers just go through a rubber stamp process almost without much scrutiny. Great system just understaffed it seems to get finds processed through quick enough.

Brilliant piece you recovered, hope Cru will be able to get an answer to your query.

cerebus · Dec 22, 2017

Some better pics of the swans, never thought to post upside down lol.

DCMatt · Dec 22, 2017

"There is a curious 'slot' at the back of the object which looks to have housed another part of the object- so its not all there."

Perhaps part of a handle?

CRUSADER · Feb 15, 2018

Please read the latest & answer the questions, if you will?

''I'm so sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

The mount is very unusual and the closest stylistically are the mounts in the Llandudno hoard https://museum.wales/collections/online/?field0=string&value0=86.24H&field1=with_images&value1=on

I can't find another example with the extensions at the upper corners which do not have mounting points. The hollow reverse is typical, although the bar on the reverse is not.

It is a shame that it was granted an export license. Is there any more news on the findspot at all? I'd like to include it in my catalogue of these mounts, but a more accurate findspot would be great – but appreciate that may not be possible.

Kind regards''

namxat · Feb 16, 2018

I think DCMatt is on the right path with a roman bronze mirror handle fragment:

https://www.virtual-egyptian-museum...0071.02-ZXL.jpg?Virtual-Egyptian:MET.XL.00071

Please people, kill me not, I still see a cross and other scratched signs on the piece.

And yes, i believe its roman, too: Style (bird head, akkantus motif), heavy cast quality ect.. Also (while difficult to say not having "facetime" with the find) this patina is very, very old.

Greets namxat

Beshires1 · Feb 18, 2018

It look like that thang that "Jeeper Creeper" guy stuck in that school bus tire.................

cerebus · Feb 20, 2018

Wow thats great new info from the UK expert. I will try and get you the requested info. Thanks again Cru for helping with the identification. Has been killing me wondering what it could be for years now!

cerebus · Mar 5, 2018

namxat said:
I think DCMatt is on the right path with a roman bronze mirror handle fragment:

https://www.virtual-egyptian-museum...0071.02-ZXL.jpg?Virtual-Egyptian:MET.XL.00071

Please people, kill me not, I still see a cross and other scratched signs on the piece.

And yes, i believe its roman, too: Style (bird head, akkantus motif), heavy cast quality ect.. Also (while difficult to say not having "facetime" with the find) this patina is very, very old.

Greets namxat

There is definitely circles and lines etched into the center, don't think it's a cross. Looks more like leaves or petals at the direct center between 2 lines. 3 circles on each side, on the left the circles touch, on the right they overlap. The mirror handle frag is definitely interesting, but I think Cru is correct.

CRUSADER · Mar 6, 2018

cerebus said:
There is definitely circles and lines etched into the center, don't think it's a cross. Looks more like leaves or petals at the direct center between 2 lines. 3 circles on each side, on the left the circles touch, on the right they overlap. The mirror handle frag is definitely interesting, but I think Cru is correct.

This is a fairly typical incised & punched decoration used on bronze Roman objects.

DCMatt · Mar 6, 2018

How about a handle mount from a patera:

CRUSADER · Mar 6, 2018

DCMatt said:
How about a handle mount from a patera:

View attachment 1559955

View attachment 1559958

View attachment 1559956

View attachment 1559957

Not a bad idea, sadly the main clue for it being a handle is the length of it & that is broken, so difficult to prove. Seeing as the expert wants to publish this with others of its type, it would be a little embarrassing if she were wrong. It would get spotted.

DCMatt · Mar 7, 2018

the main clue for it being a handle is the length of it & that is broken, so difficult to prove.

It doesn't appear to be broken. To my eye, there was another part attached in the channel on the underside.

the expert wants to publish this with others of its type

Other types of what? I've re-read the thread and I still don't quite get what you guys think this piece is. Did I miss it?

I don't mean to be a noodge. I'm just trying to learn something and perhaps add to the narrative.

CRUSADER · Mar 7, 2018

DCMatt said:
It doesn't appear to be broken. To my eye, there was another part attached in the channel on the underside.

Other types of what? I've re-read the thread and I still don't quite get what you guys think this piece is. Did I miss it?

I don't mean to be a noodge. I'm just trying to learn something and perhaps add to the narrative.

Basically a Vessel Mount, sometimes it formed part of the handle. Could be a household wine jug or something like a ritual libation bowl, as the stylised bull & birds point towards.

DCMatt · Mar 7, 2018

I get it now. The top portion of a handle for an oinochoe...

CRUSADER · Mar 7, 2018

DCMatt said:
I get it now. The top portion of a handle for an oinochoe...

View attachment 1560532

Yeap thats it.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/480990-roman-copse-field-day-5-amazing-find.html

Above is my very well modelled early type which is late Iron Age, by the late Roman period the Bulls (ritual animal & cult of mithras) head was more stylised.