Extent of Federal Authority upon the miner.

Bejay

Bronze Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
1,026
Reaction score
2,531
Golden Thread
0
Location
Central Oregon Coast
Detector(s) used
Whites GMT
Garret fully underwater
Primary Interest:
Prospecting
This is relevant to anyone entering the public lands open to mineral entry.........looking for and or discovering "locatable minerals"....subject to the mining laws of the United States.

1st it is wise to learn what these mean!

The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is the codification of the general and permanent rules and regulations by the executive departments and agencies of the federal government of the United States. These get published in the Federal Register.

US Codes: The United States Code is a consolidation and codification by subject matter of the general and permanent laws of the United States. It is prepared by the Office of the Law Revision Counsel of the United States House of Representatives. It gets published in the Federal Register. (known to be the "record").

The Federal Register, abbreviated FR or sometimes Fed. Reg., is the official journal of the federal government of the United States that contains government agency rules, proposed rules, and public notices.[1] It is published daily, except on federal holidays. The final rules promulgated by a federal agency and published in the Federal Register are ultimately reorganized by topic or subject matter and codified in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), which is updated annually.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So CFR's have to follow the LAWS In Many cases the agencies assigned to administer the Laws per the CFR's get confused and get completely off track.

So that is why the miner must understand that the USFS and the BLM must adhere to the CFR's correctly. Lately, more often than not, the agencies run amuck.

Much confusion results from the failure of such agencies to truly understand FLPMA (Federal Land Policy Management Act) and the 1955 Multiple Use Act. Acts are law ....CFR's are published agency rules adopted from the law.

One must be able to understand how this fits together like a big jig saw puzzle. Regional agencies often get it completely messed up. They read one part but fail to see the whole picture. Kinda like picking up a piece of the sky in a jig saw puzzle and because it is blue saying it is the water.

So miners MUST learn when an agency has authority and then learn when the agency authority does not exist....because the agency authorities often really get it wrong.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY REMEMBER WHEN YOU ARE OUT LOOKING FOR THE GOLD YOU ARE A MINER/PROPSECTOR....PLAIN AND SIMPLE! When challenged while out in the field always ask politely: "by what authority are you acting...and by what authority are you demanding this or that". They will quote you a CFR. Then you can look into it later if you want and decide if the agent is correct or not. If not you can find the correct CFR application or even show them within the Acts (laws) that you are not subject to their request. Letters and docs always leave a paper trail...better than he said she said.
Even if you were to lose the argument/discussion. Providing expert knowledge of such matters makes an agent realize you are not some push over. Of course always maintain your cool. No need to escalate the situation at the moment. Best to let both you and the agent give more thought/strategy to the issue at hand.

This has worked effectively for me and other miners as well.

But as you have seen me post: Cut and Paste & Copy docs are a real handy thing to have on hand in a briefcase or portfolio...or even your lap top or "I" Pad etc.

I'll post FLPMA and Multiple use Act understanding info later on this thread if interest is maintained here. One must understand the Mining Laws as well. But that is pretty easy stuff if one is guided through it correctly. It has already been done on another mining law forum.....and probably Land Matters as well.


Bejay
 

Upvote 0
Enough from me for now, until further productive discussion can occur.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what your point is. :icon_scratch:

Seems there's been a massive shotgunning of legal gobbledygook (which has been spread all over the map), but nothing that really addresses a specific issue or circumstance.

Is there a specific grievance you'd like to address? :dontknow:
 

Many times bullies take advantage of "those willing to accept their own weakness(s)". Exploiting weakness is not anything new. Often people accept "so called authority" because it appears that the "authority" is just that:....AN AUTHORITY.

Historically miners were not a well educated/informed/knowledgeable group of individuals. Miners actually could not make heads or tails of all the CFR language or LAW. Times are changing though; if miners will take the time to learn. Not such an easy task when one must understand all the pieces of a huge "jigsaw puzzle"...until they can fit them all together and get a complete picture.

It is for that purpose many continue to propagate needed information. Such discussions help UNDERSTAND how to put the pieces together.

If you recall, many have spent a considerable amount of time bringing all this information to the miners. WMA....PLP.....M.E.G.....Clay, and a host of others all help formulate active challenges.

Bejay

I learned those who assume authority are soon given it.
 

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what your point is. :icon_scratch:

Seems there's been a massive shotgunning of legal gobbledygook (which has been spread all over the map), but nothing that really addresses a specific issue or circumstance.

Is there a specific grievance you'd like to address? :dontknow:

Ok. Here is my point!

Informed miners can utilize information to their advantage. Uninformed miners tend to create their own gobblygook. So if this makes no sense to you there is no need to participate. Some inet gurus got it all figured out. But if inet gurus like to spend their time doing other things or discussing specific topics they can start a new thread.

If miners would study and learn all in my last post they would have almost all they need to protect their rights...IMHO That said much may not be applicable to their specific interest/mining. But this net link is one that can be saved via "favorites" or "files" and be used at any later date.

Bejay
 

Last edited:
Informed miners can utilize information to their advantage. Uninformed miners tend to create their own gobblygook.
There we go. Why didn't you simply state that in the first place? :dontknow:
 

As was pointed out by Clay. These forums are not a good way of actually sticking to subject. Thread stray is common. One could simply ignore such thread stray from the original topic or one can attempt to address queries.
But one can take note as to how many miners actually view the information; even if they do not participate. 2366 at last count!

Additionally the net is just full of information. Inet gurus can obtain an endless supply of information. The question then lies: "is the information correct"? If such a forum discussion can initiate participation by "experts" much of the underlying incorrect information can be scrutinized.......similar to peer review.

There is no need to participate. There actually is no need to "complain". Information can be taken or not taken. Individuals can do with it what they want. Discussion can be productive if it is allowed to be conducted in a civil manner. So my files are full of such information. As one can see there is discussion as to the correctness. But the Law/Codes/Policies/Rules are enormous and difficult for some to decipher. Clarity is beneficial.

This is simply a forum...and I chose to initiate discussion pertinent to Federal Authority and the miner. Thread stray is difficult to avoid...when questions are concerning and seemingly relevant.

Bejay
 

Last edited:
But the Law/Codes/Policies/Rules are enormous and difficult for some to decipher. Clarity is beneficial.
The way I look at it... if a person wants to play the prospecting and mining game they'd better know the rules. That goes for federal, state, county, and municipal. If they don't want to take the time to learn the rules for their respective jurisdiction, or abide by those rules, but yet still insist on playing the game, then any infractions they may incur playing that game are their own well doing with nobody else to blame but themselves. I don't know how much more simple it can be.

So now we have somebody that comes along and starts shotgunning a few of the those rules, regulations, and laws in their posts, but yet they fail point out where the game is being played, who the referees are, and what field we're playing on.

Now you can see why some here may be confused. :evil5:
 

Well maybe this will be more to your liking. Pick your poison. americanmininglawforum.myfastforum.org :: Index

Maybe not.

So again....for those who find this "confusing" they need not participate.

I don't see any benefit in this back and forth.


Bejay
 

More Federal Authority (Or Not) from my files: I continue the discussion for the benefit of those who may find it of interest.

[Quoted info] Does this not sum it it up for USFS?
I offer the following discussion of the laws that created the National Forests and their relationship to the mineral estate grant to assist you in understanding your right to mine the public lands designated as National Forest. Education is the greatest weapon you have against government employees who overstep their lawful authority. If you remember only these two things you will be in a much stronger position to deal with obstructive Forest Service employees.
1. The Forest Service is a SURFACE management agency of the Agriculture Department. The Mineral Estate Grant (our right to prospect, claim and mine the public lands) is a SUBSURFACE grant. The Forest Service has no right whatsoever to control prospecting or mining. The Forest Service only has the right to protect those SURFACE resources not directly involved in mineral extraction.
2. Those Forest Service employees work for YOU. They are YOUR employees and as a member of the public, on public lands, you have a right to instruct them on their lawful job AND to insist they do it. Title 16 of the United States Code contains all the laws relating to the Forest Service. If it's not in Title 16 it's not a law about the National Forests.
Lets see what Congress intended when they created the Forests and the Forest Service:

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 475
Section 475. Purposes for which national forests may be established and administered
All public lands designated and reserved prior to June 4, 1897, by the President of the United States under the provisions of section 471 [1] of this title, the orders for which shall be and remain in full force and effect, unsuspended and unrevoked, and all public lands that may hereafter be set aside and reserved as national forests under said section, shall be as far as practicable controlled and administered in accordance with the following provisions. No national forest shall be established, except to improve and protect the forest within the boundaries, or for the purpose of securing favorable conditions of water flows, and to furnish a continuous supply of timber for the use and necessities of citizens of the United States; but it is not the purpose or intent of these provisions, or of said section, to authorize the inclusion therein of lands more valuable for the mineral therein, or for agricultural purposes, than for forest purposes.
OK so Congress says that National Forests are established to:
1. Protect and improve the Forest within the Boundaries
OR
2. To secure favorable conditions for water flow
AND
3. To furnish a continuous supply of timber for the use and necessities of citizens.
Congress also tells us what Forests are NOT established for:
1. They are NOT to include valuable mineral land.
AND
2. They are NOT to include valuable agricultural land.
Interesting huh? What other things has Congress said the Forests are for?

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 528
Section 528. Development and administration of renewable surface resources for multiple use and sustained yield of products and services; Congressional declaration of policy and purpose
It is the policy of the Congress that the national forests are established and shall be administered for outdoor recreation, range, timber, watershed, and wildlife and fish purposes. The purposes of sections 528 to 531 of this title are declared to be supplemental to, but not in derogation of, the purposes for which the national forests were established as set forth in section 475 of this title. Nothing herein shall be construed as affecting the jurisdiction or responsibilities of the several States with respect to wildlife and fish on the national forests. Nothing herein shall be construed so as to affect the use or administration of the mineral resources of national forest lands or to affect the use or administration of Federal lands not within national forests.
So Congress later came along and added outdoor recreation, range, wildlife and fish purposes. But they make sure that everybody understands that this still doesn't affect the mineral resources found on the National Forest. Are you seeing a trend here? Congress knew that if they were going to put some agency in charge of all this public land they had to tell them what authority they had to enforce laws on that land. So they added Title 472:

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 472
Section 472. Laws affecting national forest lands
The Secretary of the Department of Agriculture shall execute or cause to be executed all laws affecting public lands reserved under the provisions of section 471 [1] of this title, or sections supplemental to and amendatory thereof, after such lands have been so reserved, excepting such laws as affect the surveying, prospecting, locating, appropriating, entering, relinquishing, reconveying, certifying, or patenting of any of such lands.
So the Secretary of Agriculture gets to have his Forest Service employees enforce the law on National Forest Lands EXCEPT those laws about mining "surveying, prospecting, locating, appropriating, entering, relinquishing, reconveying, certifying, or patenting". Seems Congress really doesn't want the Forest Service involved at all in your right to mine! So what did Congress have to say about how all these new Forest laws affect mining itself?

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 482
Section 482. Mineral lands; restoration to public domain; location and entry
Upon the recommendation of the Secretary of the Interior, with the approval of the President, after sixty days notice thereof, published in two papers of general circulation in the State or Territory wherein any national forest is situated, and near the said national forest, any public lands embraced within the limits of any such forest which, after due examination by personal inspection of a competent person appointed for that purpose by the Secretary of the Interior, shall be found better adapted for mining or for agricultural purposes than for forest usage, may be restored to the public domain. And any mineral lands in any national forest which have been or which may be shown to be such, and subject to entry under the existing mining laws of the United States and the rules and regulations applying thereto, shall continue to be subject to such location and entry, notwithstanding any provisions contained in sections 473 to 478, 479 to 482 and 551 of this title.
WOW! Congress felt so strongly about the right to the mineral estate that they made a law saying if there was better use for mining that the Forest could be turned back to the public. Even more important they made it clear that you can still make claims and mine in the National Forests and THE LAWS ABOUT FOREST USE DID NOT APPLY TO LANDS SHOWN TO BE MINERAL. They were even specific and said sections 473-482 and section 551 can not prevent you from making a claim!!! So what are these Forest Laws that have no effect on your right to claim a mineral discovery (location and entry)?

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 473
Section 473. Revocation, modification, or vacation of orders or proclamations establishing national forests
The President of the United States is authorized and empowered to revoke, modify, or suspend any and all Executive orders and proclamations or any part thereof issued under section 471 [1] of this title, from time to time as he shall deem best for the public interests. By such modification he may reduce the area or change the boundary lines or may vacate altogether any order creating a national forest.
So if the President modifies or eliminates a National Forest the claims are still valid.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 474
Section 474. Surveys; plats and field notes; maps; effect under Act June 4, 1897
Surveys, field notes, and plats returned from the survey of public lands designated as national forests undertaken under the supervision of the Director of the United States Geological Survey in accordance with provisions of Act June 4, 1897, chapter 2, section 1, thirtieth Statutes, page 34, shall have the same legal force and effect as surveys, field notes, and plats returned through the Field Surveying Service; and such surveys, which include subdivision surveys under the rectangular system, approved by the Secretary of the Interior or such officer as he may designate as in other cases, and properly certified copies thereof shall be filed in the respective land offices of the districts in which such lands are situated, as in other cases. All laws inconsistent with the provisions hereof are declared inoperative as respects such survey. A copy of every topographic map and other maps showing the distribution of the forests, together with such field notes as may be taken relating thereto, shall be certified thereto by the Director of the Survey and filed in the Bureau of Land Management.
Makes sense that they aren't allowed to modify your claim by making a survey.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 475
Section 475. Purposes for which national forests may be established and administered
We already looked at 475 above. This just makes it clear that an existing claim is not to be included in a new National Forest

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 476
Section 476 has been repealed.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 477
Section 477. Use of timber and stone by settlers
The Secretary of Agriculture may permit, under regulations to be prescribed by him, the use of timber and stone found upon national forests, free of charge, by bona fide settlers, miners, residents, and prospectors for minerals, for firewood, fencing, buildings, mining, prospecting, and other domestic purposes, as may be needed by such persons for such purposes; such timber to be used within the State or Territory, respectively, where such national forests may be located.
The right to the timber found on your claim was established in the 1872 Mining act and is repeated here. Notice that timber for all the ordinary uses for mining are specifically free.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 478
Section 478. Egress or ingress of actual settlers; prospecting
Nothing in sections 473 to 478, 479 to 482 and 551 of this title shall be construed as prohibiting the egress or ingress of actual settlers residing within the boundaries of national forests, or from crossing the same to and from their property or homes; and such wagon roads and other improvements may be constructed thereon as may be necessary to reach their homes and to utilize their property under such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by the Secretary of Agriculture. Nor shall anything in such sections prohibit any person from entering upon such national forests for all proper and lawful purposes, including that of prospecting, locating, and developing the mineral resources thereof. Such persons must comply with the rules and regulations covering such national forests.
Well they can't lock you out or prevent you from prospecting or mining. Remember that these laws are specifically NOT applicable to claiming mineral land. Your right to travel to your claim is already preserved in the 1866 and 1872 Acts. Congress seems to want to make that fact doubly clear for the Forest Service.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 479
Section 479. Sites for schools and churches
The settlers residing within the exterior boundaries of national forests, or in the vicinity thereof, may maintain schools and churches within such national forest, and for that purpose may occupy any part of the said national forest, not exceeding two acres for each schoolhouse and one acre for a church.
I don't think I need to explain this one. The right of the people to use the public lands for education and worship are well established.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 480
Section 480. Civil and criminal jurisdiction
The jurisdiction, both civil and criminal, over persons within national forests shall not be affected or changed by reason of their existence, except so far as the punishment of offenses against the United States therein is concerned; the intent and meaning of this provision being that the State wherein any such national forest is situated shall not, by reason of the establishment thereof, lose its jurisdiction, nor the inhabitants thereof their rights and privileges as citizens, or be absolved from their duties as citizens of the State.
The reason this one is explicitly excluded is that when you are on your claim you are not legally IN the National Forest. You are ON a mineral estate.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 481
Section 481. Use of waters
All waters within the boundaries of national forests may be used for domestic, mining, milling, or irrigation purposes, under the laws of the State wherein such national forests are situated, or under the laws of the United States and the rules and regulations established thereunder.
The prior right to the water needed for mining was already granted in the 1866 Act.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 3 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 551
Section 551. Protection of national forests; rules and regulations
The Secretary of Agriculture shall make provisions for the protection against destruction by fire and depredations upon the public forests and national forests which may have been set aside or which may be hereafter set aside under the provisions of section 471 [1] of this title, and which may be continued; and he may make such rules and regulations and establish such service as will insure the objects of such reservations, namely, to regulate their occupancy and use and to preserve the forests thereon from destruction; and any violation of the provisions of this section, sections 473 to 478 and 479 to 482 of this title or such rules and regulations shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment for not more than six months, or both. Any person charged with the violation of such rules and regulations may be tried and sentenced by any United States magistrate judge specially designated for that purpose by the court by which he was appointed, in the same manner and subject to the same conditions as provided for in section 3401 (b) to (e) of title 18.
As a mineral estate grantee your mining claim entry is specifically exempted from this law under Section 482. The very nature of mining disrupts the natural environment. One way or another, if you are going to mine a valuable mineral at some point you WILL dig a hole and you WILL need a place to store,and work, the results of your digging. Your right to extract minerals is by definition NOT a destruction or depredation - it is a RIGHT pure and simple. These laws giving power to the Forest Service are very clear the mineral grant is to be respected and prospecting and mining were to be accomodated.
The lands outside your mineral estate, that have not been shown to be mineral in character, ARE a subject of this law. You have no right to destroy or depredate the Forest lands that are not contained within your claimed mineral grant. The Forest Service has every right and duty to protect those lands NOT proven to be mineral in character. Please do not exceed your mineral grant - it only injures the people's land and gives ammunition to those Forest employees who have a limited understanding of their obligation to those who have chosen to participate in the mineral grant.

Here are a few more sections of the Forest law that don't refer to minerals specifically but DO have legal effect for miners and prospectors.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 532
Section 532. Roads and trails system; Congressional findings and declaration of policy
The Congress hereby finds and declares that the construction and maintenance of an adequate system of roads and trails within and near the national forests and other lands administered by the Forest Service is essential if increasing demands for timber, recreation, and other uses of such lands are to be met; that the existence of such a system would have the effect, among other things, of increasing the value of timber and other resources tributary to such roads; and that such a system is essential to enable the Secretary of Agriculture (hereinafter called the Secretary) to provide for intensive use, protection, development, and management of these lands under principles of multiple use and sustained yield of products and services.
I don't think most Forest Supervisors have been paying much attention to the Congressional findings and declaration of policy. This is supposed to be binding guidance from Congress to the Secretary of Agriculture on what they mean when the issue of roads and development and use of the land comes up. It's a law instructing the Secretary to favor more roads and more development of the Forest lands. It actually says "intensive use" - not less. It mandates the principle of "sustained yield of products and services" and insists the Forest Service allow "multiple use". Congress says a system of roads and trails are "essential" to meet increasing demands of Forest use. The Congress says that a system of roads would have the effect of... "increasing the value of timber and other resources tributary to such roads".
Keep this law in mind the next time a Forest employee says something stupid like "It's our job to keep development out of the Forest". These are direct instructions from that Forest employee's biggest boss, the people speaking through Congress, that just the opposite is true.

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 524
Section 524. Rights-of-way for dams, reservoirs, or water plants for municipal, mining, and milling purposes
Rights-of-way for the construction and maintenance of dams, reservoirs, water plants, ditches, flumes, pipes, tunnels, and canals, within and across the national forests of the United States, are granted to citizens and corporations of the United States for municipal or mining purposes, and for the purposes of the milling and reduction of ores, during the period of their beneficial use, under such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, and subject to the laws of the State or Territory in which said forests are respectively situated.
Bet you didn't know that you had another Grant besides the mineral estate grant did you?
Here is a grant of the right to build and maintain "dams, reservoirs, water plants, ditches, flumes, pipes, tunnels, and canals" across the Forest for "mining purposes, and for the purposes of the milling and reduction of ores". That wasn't spelled out in the brochure on Forest Use your local National Forest provides for education, was it?

All of these laws are current Federal law on National Forests (USC Title 16 Chapter 2 - National Forests). In the Eastern United States there are purchased Forests known as "Weeks Law" Forests and many of these laws do not necessarily apply to them. In the 11 Western States these are the current, and applicable laws. Each Section is presented in whole with no excluded words or phrases.

Remember - under the mining acts if you are not a citizen of the United States or have not stated your intention to become one you may NOT participate in the mineral estate grant. If you are not in the actual act of prospecting (exploring), staking (locating), claiming (making entry) or mining ALL of these National Forest laws apply to you. Avoid camping or "recreational" prospecting and mining if you wish to enjoy the right to the mineral estate that Congress has been so careful to preserve for you." [End of quoted information].

Bejay
 

The way I look at it... if a person wants to play the prospecting and mining game they'd better know the rules. That goes for federal, state, county, and municipal. If they don't want to take the time to learn the rules for their respective jurisdiction, or abide by those rules, but yet still insist on playing the game, then any infractions they may incur playing that game are their own well doing with nobody else to blame but themselves. I don't know how much more simple it can be.

So now we have somebody that comes along and starts shotgunning a few of the those rules, regulations, and laws in their posts, but yet they fail point out where the game is being played, who the referees are, and what field we're playing on.

Now you can see why some here may be confused. :evil5:

I for one can understand what Bejay is trying to share with us here as well as why he is sharing it.

You say that miners need to know all the rules for the area that they're working in and you're 100% correct. KNOWLEDGE of the rules is important no matter where the game is being played, who is playing and who the Referees are. What we are dealing with here is learning the rules so when an agency starts trying to sidestep those rules by whatever means, we will be able to know that they're "out of bounds" and can call a "foul" on them.

The rules can be VERY hard to fully understand because they're written in the language of lawyers which many people have a hard time dealing with. Many words that we THINK we know the meaning of can have very different meanings when used by lawyers. A good legal dictionary that is relevant to the period when the laws were written is pretty much a must have when trying to understand what they (the laws) actually mean.

These agencies that want to control many of the aspects of mining prey on the fact that many miners have no idea how far their rights extend and how little authority over mining many of these agencies actually have. They try to over reach their authority and if we don't understand their actual limits of authority over us we can't call "Foul" and be able to stand up to them and protect our right to mine.

Clay got me started learning this stuff a little over a year ago now so I may or may not have an advantage over some of the other folks here. Even with this head start it's confusing at times. I am NOT a lawyer by any means and it's been a struggle to get some of this stuff down. I do feel that it is well worth the effort to learn this to protect my rights to mine my claim(s) as well as protect my investments in both time and money in them. ( some of the folks here know how many hours I've spent just on research!!!) By knowing the rules of the game I/WE can keep the "bullies" from cheating.

Bejay is giving us a copy of the rule book. It's up to us to learn them. Trying to give specific examples of over reach by the different agencies we're dealing with here distracts from learning the rules first. Maybe once he's finished up we can get into some specific examples ie: cases both won and lost by both sides.

(BTW... I hate it when T-net times out and I have to log back in to post something.)
 

Bejay I was just reading through Title 16 Thanks for posting this as I could not find this on my other putor.


TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 472
Section 472. Laws affecting national forest lands
The Secretary of the Department of Agriculture shall execute or cause to be executed all laws affecting public lands reserved under the provisions of section 471 [1] of this title, or sections supplemental to and amendatory thereof, after such lands have been so reserved, excepting such laws as affect the surveying, prospecting, locating, appropriating, entering, relinquishing, reconveying, certifying, or patenting of any of such lands.
So the Secretary of Agriculture gets to have his Forest Service employees enforce the law on National Forest Lands EXCEPT those laws about mining "surveying, prospecting, locating, appropriating, entering, relinquishing, reconveying, certifying, or patenting". Seems Congress really doesn't want the Forest Service involved at all in your right to mine! So what did Congress have to say about how all these new Forest laws affect mining itself?

TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 2 > SUBCHAPTER I > Section 482
Section 482. Mineral lands; restoration to public domain; location and entry
Upon the recommendation of the Secretary of the Interior, with the approval of the President, after sixty days notice thereof, published in two papers of general circulation in the State or Territory wherein any national forest is situated, and near the said national forest, any public lands embraced within the limits of any such forest which, after due examination by personal inspection of a competent person appointed for that purpose by the Secretary of the Interior, shall be found better adapted for mining or for agricultural purposes than for forest usage, may be restored to the public domain. And any mineral lands in any national forest which have been or which may be shown to be such, and subject to entry under the existing mining laws of the United States and the rules and regulations applying thereto, shall continue to be subject to such location and entry, notwithstanding any provisions contained in sections 473 to 478, 479 to 482 and 551 of this title.
WOW! Congress felt so strongly about the right to the mineral estate that they made a law saying if there was better use for mining that the Forest could be turned back to the public. Even more important they made it clear that you can still make claims and mine in the National Forests and THE LAWS ABOUT FOREST USE DID NOT APPLY TO LANDS SHOWN TO BE MINERAL. They were even specific and said sections 473-482 and section 551 can not prevent you from making a claim!!! So what are these Forest Laws that have no effect on your right to claim a mineral discovery (location and entry)?
 

TITLE 16 - CONSERVATION
Chapter 2 Subchapter 1
Sec, 472,473,474,475,477,478,480,481
Sec, 524,528,532,& 551
TITLE 30 - MINERAL LANDS AND MINING
30 USC ss 21-42
TITLE 43 - PUBLIC LANDS
Chapter 35

Now you take all these laws, pertaining to our Mining, and to understand them? That's quit the accomplishment.
Then through in all the CFRs. That's quit the accomplishment. That's quit the accomplishment.That's quit the accomplishment.That's quit the accomplishment.
To not go MAD!
 

So true Hefty1. When I got started, I found myself researching layer upon layer of laws and agencies. It was making my head ache. I was spending way more time on laws than finding gold. Finally out of frustration, I simply decided to go rogue in "their" public forest.
 

As Clay reminded us on this thread. There is an allowable "authority" by the Secretary. As M.E.G. has pointed out one MUST KNOW where the allowable authority exists and "where it must cease to exist". In reading all the law/rules/regs/policies/etc that exist today a miner must "comprehend" how to use them effectively. Clay points to the LAW & Cases to support where we can find "that which supports the right to mine locatable minerals on the public lands open to mineral entry".

Most all of this was discussed on the Mining Law Forum. However, much of the extent of the intrusionary authority we see today comes from other environmental Acts. Note in the Calif legal dissertation I posted there is even Federal Authority passed to the States. I am having a over 65 moment and can't think of the "Terminology" (intergovernmental agreement?). It basically has to do with "wildlife". I'll go back and retrieve it later.
As miners we see this "wildlife" issue bringing forth a lot of "intrusion" if you will. One can even see it at the State level; let alone the Federal level.

Unlike much of the later years the "environmental" issues are forefront with both the USFS and BLM. Knowing how to deal with those so called "environmental" intrusions is of utmost concern. One can argue, and rightfully so, that an agency has no authority; that said one can NOT kill a fish, pollute a stream or river, cause harm to a Bald Eagle, stir up mercury, etc etc etc.

More often than not this brings forth the issue of an NOI and POO...as the BLM and USFS will use the "environmental" Acts to justify their position.

But the point of this thread was to either acknowledge there is USFS and BLM authority upon the miner, or there is not. The point of this thread was to understand that one can not simply pick and chose certain aspect of CFR's and treat them as LAW. The point of this thread was to offer some overall clarity. Each case confronting the miner will have to be dealt with utilizing the correct application of US Code, Law, and Court Cases.

Most miners will not take on the task. I believe Jerry Hobbs put it something like this: 10% of the miners will become active in this endeavor of "protecting miners rights". For sure he will be missed!


Bejay





I have some information left in my files and can bring it forth should this thread continue. But I believe miners can obtain enough from what has been said to create their own "portfolio" of information.
 

Yeah... It DOES get confusing Hefty and I often find myself mad while reading this stuff. Mad because it's not written in plain English! It is unfortunate that lawyers learned early on in the history of mankind that if they made up their own language to write the laws in, that they would have job security since we would need them to decipher that language. But as you're starting to see, it is a language that with a little effort can be understood and made to work to OUR advantage.

The "other Jeff isn't alone in gaining a headache from trying to learn this secret language. I've had my share of them as well! If you take them in small pieces at a time it makes it a little easier. Keeps you from ending up with a case of "Legal Brain Freeze".
 

I am sure the headache confessions are "preaching to the choir" so to say! I have more than my share....and thus try to add by initiating discussion. Going "rogue" is a real pain in the "Neck" as one would have to constasntly be looking over his shoulder. Gold mining has always been extremely enjoyable......and taking that from me is not to my liking.

I stated: "Unlike much of the later years the "environmental" issues are forefront with both the USFS and BLM. Knowing how to deal with those so called "environmental" intrusions is of utmost concern. One can argue, and rightfully so, that an agency has no authority; that said one can NOT kill a fish, pollute a stream or river, cause harm to a Bald Eagle, stir up mercury, etc etc etc."

I Have said this before and I will continue to say it: (from personal experience and dealings with the Head USFS Regional Director). He told me many years ago that the USFS was going to have to change directions and appease the "greenies". The reason for the dramatic change was because the "greenies" challenged everything the USFS did, and won 99% of their challenges in the 9th. This cost the USFS endless time and money...and the USFS could not do anything....unless it appeased the "greenies".

So what can the mining community do? Seems pretty simple to me. Take the USFS and BLM to court every chance and opportunity available. With the MEG and the Current Laws such challenges can be beneficial. In order for the mining community (miners) to willingly take on such a task requires a certain amount of knowledge. That knowledge affords the mining community, and the miners, a level of needed confidence. Existing court cases that support the miner are important.

Do we sit back and "do nothing" or do we attempt to build such confidence? I know I continue to "learn" and hope to get it right. I may be approaching an age that is to old to mine...but I am not to old to "challenge". Been there...done that....and it works. Knowledge and confidence is the key...IMHO.

Speaking of the language used! I have a geology background...and in geology the use of terms, names, etc is unique. It is gobblygook to many. But it is really not hard to learn if one takes the time. I believe the same holds true for the subject matter on this thread. But knowing that an agency has some authority, and knowing that it is limited makes one want to learn. IMHO. Sitting around griping about the Gov accomplishes nothing!

Bejay
 

Like X10 Bejay. So far here in my neck of the woods, it's been live and let live so no pain in the neck for me. I'm confident and secure of what I can, can't and shouldn't do. I have papers on me and I am at least familiar with laws and how they get passed...most times under the radar(I know, I've done it). But little by little, my defense builds for the day I hope never comes. Thanks for the sound advice and enlightenments.
 

Last edited:
Speaking of the language used! I have a geology background...and in geology the use of terms, names, etc is unique. It is gobblygook to many. But it is really not hard to learn if one takes the time. I believe the same holds true for the subject matter on this thread. But knowing that an agency has some authority, and knowing that it is limited makes one want to learn. IMHO. Sitting around griping about the Gov accomplishes nothing!

BINGO!... Although I don't have a geology background, for the last couple years, I've been soaking up everything I can not only on geology, but also on all the laws and regulations and how they pertain to my own personal prospecting endeavors. Yes, it can be quite an undertaking, but as I stated previously, if a guy is going to play the game, they need to know the rules.

Keep up the good work with your postings. Even though I've researched and documented the same information for my personal undertakings, I need to realize that many here are probably being exposed to that information for the very first time. My bad!
 

Well I will see how well I did with my letter in response to theirs,( USFS) if I ever get a response from them. I have gotten the green cards back so I know they got them. And I plan on stopping in on them shortly after the NEW YEAR! Lets see if they will talk to me in person this time.

Keep up the good work Bejay. :notworthy: :occasion14:
 

Well I will see how well I did with my letter in response to theirs,( USFS) if I ever get a response from them. I have gotten the green cards back so I know they got them. And I plan on stopping in on them shortly after the NEW YEAR! Lets see if they will talk to me in person this time. Keep up the good work Bejay. :notworthy: :occasion14:

Speak softly Hefty1 but have a BIG stick in your back pocket! Fingers crossed for you......GN
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom