Fake Garbage

[tomclark]

I bought this Pinellas Point back around 1989 or so at a local, well known show (St. Leo), for 10 bucks, was in a case with many others for sale. This one looked the best..... I never gave it any thought that it might be a fake. It was in the center of my Woodland point frame for many years. It was the only point I've ever bought.
I eventually realized that I just wanted my own personal finds so I sold this on eBay, with a guarantee.
Buyer, who visits these boards, sent it to Carlos Tatum, a Florida COA specialist, who killed it. I also sold off most of the artifacts that people had given to me. I remember the Seller Jerk's face and have looked for him at subsequent shows.
I refunded the 45 bucks the buyer won it for, plus the postage, plus half of the 20 dollar COA cost.
No more eBay for me and now I don't care who you are, I don't trust that if you make modern repro/fake artifacts of any type they won't wind up in collections with authentics. Stop making them and take up crosswords. "Look what I can do!" hahahaha, ugh.
Your crap will likely end up in an auction or sale someday, perhaps when you die and your ungrateful wretched heirs (LOL!) sell off your crap at the Estate Sale. Yeah sure you permanently mark all work as repro. I'll take your word on that? Nope. Disclaimer: I believe there are ethical modern knappers out there.
On a postive note, modern flintnapping is a great boon to the COA and ballpeen industries.
This point got the ballpeen treatment and I have a nice example of a "bad" COA.

 

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[Flintfinder of Mo.]

OH Tom, you just drudged up some old memories from a few years ago. I ended up with about 3 fakes. One was a very nice Hardin with some killer fake patina, one was a classic Snyder's with fake patina. the other a hopewell. Fake point, fake patina. I fought my butt off ,and got my money back on the 600 dollar Hardin, But had to ballpeen hammer the other two. It was the first time that I bought from eBay, and a show. I learned my lesson, and will NEVER do it again. When I go to a show now I take money for books, and maybe a t-shirt or two. The last show I went to I asked the seller to look at 2 points, (also the same guy that sold the Hardin to the guy I bought it from) I guess he could tell that I knew something, because both points I asked to look at he told me had been restored. No big deal huh, well he had some big money on them to have 45% restoration on both.( plus I don't think restored points belong in shows, if you have it restored leave it at home.) I kid you not. I then asked him about the Hardin that he sold to the guy I bought it from, and then he was done talking to me. That's all this guy does is sells, and he is very well know, but his reputation is catching up with him. I am not attacking anyone that Knapp's, that's what they like to do so be it. I believe if you spend your money on a point, and its fake, and your out the money. You have every right to take the ballpeen to it. I am a little disappointed that Tom didn't get the In Situ shots of him smashing, like I did. (Remember Tom) Sorry bout the luck. John P.s With The making of these reproductions, This post Is personal testimony is to what happens to collectors.

 

[archaeon]

FFOM, Tom and i have been diggin for about 20 years together, and i have never seen him so pissed! we are both "ball peen hammer brigade"!

 

[*Molly*]

I was sent a few fake points, as a gift. It was no secret they were fakes. I liked them, nice flaking, nice material. BUT, my sledgehammer liked them more.

Molly.

 

[GL]

Nice flame thread.
It's really easy to NOT do something like flame and insult someones hobbies.

Suppose someone thinks MD'ing is stealing history and all MDers are sneaking theives who troll battlefields for rusty things to sell for a profit, like making money off the dead. Should they post that in the MD'ing section and insult the fine folks there who disagree? Maybe they could simply interrupt their threads and disrupt their boards with images of handcuffs and Park Rangers and they could laugh and insult them while they are trying to discuss their hobby. Sound fair to you guys?

If you don't like knapping, DON'T KNAP. If you have a problem with knappers, then petition the Admins here to have us banned and our posts stripped so that our presence doesn't further infuriate you. Lord forbid anyone decides to chip a rock or a bottle bottom into something pretty while any of you people are around. Might lose a hand from all the hammers flying. I am already feeling the heat from your flames and insults.

That being said I agree that traders should ALWAYS have their pieces documented and appraised professionally to avoid such problems. If you buy a point at a show without a certicard then you messed up. The guy got one over on you or maybe he thought it was real too and he was rooked when he got it originally. It pays to have these things checked before you buy or to buy them from reputable dealers.

In the end a professionals opinion is all you have no matter what. Unless you find it yourself.

 

[tomclark]

GL, you should take up macrame or tatting But first, take a deep breath and relax
You rant. How about I make up a bunch of fake buttons and boxplates and slavetags as an art form and hobby? Now imagine hundreds of buttocks making fake Civil War Artifacts for many decades. Might be a nice hobby. That would go over big on the MD forum.

 

[GL]

I rant?
Tom, YOU started this craptastic flame thread not me.
If you got swindled maybe have it checked out first next time, don't flame us.
Maybe you could take up knitting and knit yourself a hammer holster.

 

[jeff of pa]

Nice flame thread.
It's really easy to NOT do something like flame and insult someones hobbies.

Suppose someone thinks MD'ing is stealing history and all MDers are sneaking theives who troll battlefields for rusty things to sell for a profit, like making money off the dead. Should they post that in the MD'ing section and insult the fine folks there who disagree? Maybe they could simply interrupt their threads and disrupt their boards with images of handcuffs and Park Rangers and they could laugh and insult them while they are trying to discuss their hobby. Sound fair to you guys?

If you don't like knapping, DON'T KNAP. If you have a problem with knappers, then petition the Admins here to have us banned and our posts stripped so that our presence doesn't further infuriate you. Lord forbid anyone decides to chip a rock or a bottle bottom into something pretty while any of you people are around. Might lose a hand from all the hammers flying. I am already feeling the heat from your flames and insults.

That being said I agree that traders should ALWAYS have their pieces documented and appraised professionally to avoid such problems. If you buy a point at a show without a certicard then you messed up. The guy got one over on you or maybe he thought it was real too and he was rooked when he got it originally. It pays to have these things checked before you buy or to buy them from reputable dealers.

In the end a professionals opinion is all you have no matter what. Unless you find it yourself.

GL You are Correct If somone came on & Put down Relic Hunters I would Delete on site.

I would also delete any post Putting down Arrow head Hunters on site.

Tom also has a point on Counterfeiters. But I know You's are not Doing it
for illegal reasons. And direct Putdowns on any member would also
be deleted.

 

[Hill Billy]

Boom!

 

[tomclark]

How many people on this board have ever seen a real COA that they could read, and one that kills a point at that?
I thought they might like to read a nice story, certainly related to flintnapping, and see the paper with point.
I believe, sir, I educateth, not ranteth. Pointing out my own stupidity was a lesson I hope not lost on people reading my post. Excuse me I have to finish some "reproduction" bone pins, shell hammers, plummets and beads.

 

[Hill Billy]

Tom, is that a raccoon peeeenis?

 

[*Molly*]

I thought this forum was American Indian Artifacts..
Why is this section here? It's a hobby & belongs in the Hobby forum.
Flint knapping is a Hobby right?

Molly. JMHO.

 

[Hill Billy]

I thought this forum was American Indian Artifacts..
Why is this section here? It's a hobby & belongs in the Hobby forum.
Flint knapping is a Hobby right?

Molly. JMHO.

 

[GL]

This thread is an intentional insult to flint knappers and you know it.
Spin it like a pinwheel and it is what it is. The first post is the proof.

Your crap will likely end up in an auction or sale someday, perhaps when you die and your ungrateful wretched heirs (LOL!) sell off your crap at the Estate Sale. Yeah sure you permanently mark all work as repro. I'll take your word on that? Nope. Disclaimer: I believe there are ethical modern knappers out there.
On a postive note, modern flintnapping is a great boon to the COA and ballpeen industries.

Ha ha hilarious right? I dare you to refute this as anything but insulting. Criminy I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. If you want a real piece, have it authenticated before you buy it or ask to have it authenticated first. Problem solved. Man I'm a super genius.

This is a hobby Molly you're right. If there is a hobbies area then this board should be there away from folks who feel the inescapable, uncontrollable urge to derail and flame other members for their interests. I don't come here to have my interests belittled and mocked by anyone. If I wanted that I'd post on 4Chan or [AS].

 

[tomclark]

"Look what I can do!" "Look at me, I'm an archae-artist!" nyuk, nyuk, now that's insulting
If I hit a nerve it's because it strikes home. Your modern knapped stuff will be all over the place, along with hundreds and hundreds of other's "material".
PS: I can make fire from two sticks of wood and I have raw agatized coral all over my house and property!
muhaha

Another related story:
I've been walking a particular eroding midden for almost twenty years. I know the material and point types. One day another friend who walked the same beach found a cache of small white points. Material was wrong, type was odd, patina wrong, all looked made on flakes. Never fooled me I have hundreds of lithics from this same site. The five fakes are pictured here with two other real points in his casebox and are most likely made from coral found in Pasco Co, he was so proud of them.....:

I later found another point that was part of this cache.
Turns out the place was SALTED by a knapper who had company from out of town, thought it would be nice for them to find a point on the beach. Problem was the tide and storm after he salted.....covered them up for his company only to be found by us later. (GL read: Knappers are Salters, LOL)
If we hadn't heard the story from yet a third collector and I hadn't called the individual who made them and asked him outright....that other individual would still be thinking he had a special find. I'm probably the only one who ever had a story like that involving modern repros being passed off/salted.

 

[Flintfinder of Mo.]

I think this is a great post as long as we can stay away from personalities and stay focused on the artifacts Verses artifakes. I don't want anyone to feel attacked. I don't think that their is a dern thing wrong with showing both sides of the making of reproductions. I am not telling the knappers to SHHHHHHH, and I don't think they should tell the people that have spent their hard earned money on a piece sold to them as authentic to SHHHHHH. Telling a personal experience is not an attack, but informative to the people who don't know any better. Me getting ripped off has nothing to do with a lot of you honest guys that Knapp, just shows people it is happening, and it happens a lot more than you hear about. Infact a lot of people still don't know they have been had. I guess my point is.... that we don't have to agree on everything, and you can speak your mind, and give your opinion. Just leave out personality's. John

 

[trish76642]

Tom isnt trying to put down knappers. Its the ones who do it and then lie about it. He was a target of a dishonest person, and i would have been mad too!

Knapping takes skills, wish i knew how to do it i would. Its an art, but dont sell one and tell everybody its an original artifact when its not! Thats just like stealing!

You'd be surprised how many fakes of all sorts are on Ebay, its not just arrowheads.

Sorry that happened to you Tom.

 

[Flintfinder of Mo.]

I Just wanted to add one more point. I brought up Fake Patina. These reproductions are coming up with fake deposits on them. WHY To fool people out of their hard earned money. Do I think knappers are putting the fake deposits on them? I think some are. I also think other collectors are doing it . Its the guys coming up with ways to fool the pros's ,and authenticators that are to blame.( or at least that's who I blame) Its big business, and a big problem in the artifact community. Its something that needs more attention, and should be discussed. We can't hide from it. On a personal note............... I am not rich at all. Infact poor people get some of their best goodies at income tax time. I divided up our tax money that year with my wife and 3 kids. I spent mine on a few artifacts, and felt like crap when I found out they were fake. I would have rather had given that money to my wife and kids. Like I said we were not rich, and I felt very guilty about how I spent that money. LIVE AND LEARN I don't want to see anyone else go threw that

 

[GL]

Again, I feel this is a pointed thread. I quoted why but that's okay. Before starting here on TreasureNet I had no idea people even still made points. I figured I would have to just go out and find them to enjoy them. I didn't know people bought them or that there were shows where they were showed off. I had seen frames of points and stuff before and thought that was about all they were good for, looking at and arranging in interesting patters on red velvet. It wasn't until I started posting down here in the Indian section that I realized people spent fortunes on these things and that there are arrowheads worth thousands of dollars. I suppose I did, but never really thought about it. I remember seeing two huge frames at a pawnshop a few years ago marked at $50 and I can still remember telling my wife it was a suckers buy because they were only arrowheads and arrowheads are free.
I suppose it makes perfect sense that there would be fakers making a living off of duplicating artifacts and documentation. That means of course there would be those who had been preyed upon by these scammers leaving a dirty feeling in the mouth of the scammed. That makes sense to me and I understand that. I once bought an old shotgun for $400(I only made $800 a month) and later found out it was a cheap POS.

 

[Ohio_Doug]

I have an easy remedy for ya, how about find your own and don't buy ANY from ANYONE. I will never ever buy a point, if I don't personally find it I will not own it. If I ever become good enough to reproduce a point that someone would buy after I'm long gone, then that's on the buyer. Ever heard the phrase "Buyer Beware"?