Finders, Keepers. Siilence IS Golden! Shut up!

Silver Fox

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Fellow THers: I'm sure that by the time you reach the end of this post you'll be thinking: "Why couldn't this have happened to me, I sure as heck CAN keep a secret!" We'll it shows you that some people are just downright stupid. Would you REALLY want to share this kind of news with the world and pose for photos? Next time you're checking out that abandoned house keep this article in mind.

Silver Fox

Cash found in Ohio house's walls becomes nightmare
By JOE MILICIA
Associated Press Writer

CLEVELAND (AP) -- A contractor who found $182,000 in Depression-era currency hidden in a bathroom wall has ended up with only a few thousand dollars, but he feels some vindication.

The windfall discovery amounted to little more than grief for contractor Bob Kitts, who couldn't agree on how to split the money with homeowner Amanda Reece.

It didn't help Reece much, either. She testified in a deposition that she was considering bankruptcy and that a bank recently foreclosed on one of her properties.

And 21 descendants of Patrick Dunne - the wealthy businessman who stashed the money that was minted in a time of bank collapses and joblessness - will each get a mere fraction of the find.

"If these two individuals had sat down and resolved their disputes and divided the money, the heirs would have had no knowledge of it," said attorney Gid Marcinkevicius, who represents the Dunne estate. "Because they were not able to sit down and divide it in a rational way, they both lost."

Kitts was tearing the bathroom walls out of an 83-year-old home near Lake Erie in 2006 when he discovered two green metal lockboxes suspended inside a wall below the medicine chest, hanging from a wire. Inside were white envelopes with the return address for "P. Dunne News Agency."

"I ripped the corner off of one," Kitts said during a deposition in a lawsuit filed by Dunne's estate. "I saw a 50 and got a little dizzy."

He called Reece, a former high school classmate who had hired him for a remodeling project.

They counted the cash and posed for photographs, both grinning like lottery jackpot winners.

But how to share? She offered 10 percent. He wanted 40 percent. From there things went sour.

A month after The Plain Dealer reported on the case in December 2007, Dunne's estate got involved, suing for the right to the money.

By then there was little left to claim.

Reece testified in a deposition that she spent about $14,000 on a trip to Hawaii and had sold some of the rare late 1920s bills. She said about $60,000 was stolen from a shoe box in her closet but testified that she never reported the theft to police.

Kitts said Reece accused him of stealing the money and began leaving him threatening phone messages. Marcinkevicius doesn't believe the money was stolen but said he couldn't prove otherwise.

Reece's phone number has been disconnected, and her attorney Robert Lazzaro did not return a call seeking comment. There were no court records showing that Reece had filed for bankruptcy.

Kitts said he lost a lot of business because media reports on the case portrayed him as greedy, but he feels vindicated by the court's decision to give him a share.

"I was not the bad guy that everybody made me out to be," Kitts said. "I didn't do anything wrong."

He's often asked why he didn't keep his mouth shut and pocket the money. He says he wasn't raised that way.

"It was a neat experience, something that won't happen again," Kitts said. "In that regard, it was pretty fascinating; seeing that amount of money in front of you was breathtaking. In that regard, I don't regret it.

"The threats and all - that's the part that makes you wish it never happened."

© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
 

"Because they were not able to sit down and divide it in a rational way, they both lost."


This seems to be such a common scenario. Whether it's divorces, business deals...or treasure.
 

The Mrs. and I had a conversation last night. We both agreed 'finders keepers' and let God be the judge.
 

He said he wasn't raised that way so he told her about the money. Nice thoughts, but then why did he think his share should be 40%? No, it is best to keep all finds to yourself including posting pictures of them here in the forum or on the web.
 

My time, my money: what i find is mine....unless i am specifically commissioned to recover an item of value.
 

My feelings would have to be more on a case by case situation.

An abandoned house...no doubt my mouth would be sealed....definately finders keepers :thumbsup:

But...that was a remodeling job at someones house. If it's in their house...I figure its their's.

If I found a box in someone's wall...I'd be curious as heck at what it was...but I'd let the owner...who was obviously there...know I found something. Who's to say the owner might not have put it there themselves.

Not so in this particular incident, but it could have been put there by her...and then if you said nothing...you'd be a thief.

Al
 

The headline should've read "Bankrupt Lady Decided to Spend $14,000 on Trip To Hawaii Instead." ::)
 

deepskyal said:
My feelings would have to be more on a case by case situation.

An abandoned house...no doubt my mouth would be sealed....definately finders keepers :thumbsup:

But...that was a remodeling job at someones house. If it's in their house...I figure its their's.

If I found a box in someone's wall...I'd be curious as heck at what it was...but I'd let the owner...who was obviously there...know I found something. Who's to say the owner might not have put it there themselves.

Not so in this particular incident, but it could have been put there by her...and then if you said nothing...you'd be a thief.

Al
Good points, Al, and definitely a case-by-case situation. But in this case, the owner doesn't seem to be a descendant and was not aware of the stash since she was considering bankruptcy and that a bank recently foreclosed on one of her properties.

Possibly an avenue of exploration would have been inquiring of the owner if she was a descendant of the person whose name appears on the envelopes (P. Dunne News Agency) feigning that you did a little research on the house as you normally do on all of your projects since history interests you, etc.

If the person has no knowledge of the previous owners or any anecdotes that would give away knowing about a stash, then it's open season and you don't have to feel obliged to discuss your finding. When you find a valuable item with or without a metal detector, you don't normally look for the owner. You're glad to have found that ring or that watch or that bracelet, whatever. The only time you might return it is if the person who lost it sees you with a metal detector and asks if you found the item with enough description to convince you that they did lose it. Then, you being an honest person will turn it over and have just a pang of guilt at being so honest. :thumbsup:

So, yes, let the circumstances guide you. Keeping something that you found because you got an all-clear sign doesn't make you a thief.

Silver Fox
 

You know.....

Now you got me thinking because I used to do remodeling and am reconsidering going back into some kind of handyman service thing with the economy the way it is.

But.....I liked your point of the previous owner/descendant. If the current owner has no knowledge of the house's history and no kinship to the original owners.....

I think I'd have to be mighty sly in dealing with that situation. Maybe a conversation when I get an idea I may have found something like..."Gee Mrs.Smith..you know a house this old might have stuff in the walls. If I find anything I can work a deal with you on the job cost or we could split a find."

The only thing I ever found in my days of contracting was a big bag of marijuana under some furniture I had to move. I left it be...not because I was honest...I was scared of what the guy would do if he found it missing.

That sure is a hit or miss find though. My uncle did demo work all his years and never found any kind of treasure...except some old bottles which he collected.

Something to think about though...if I was ever to be so lucky.
Al
 

deepskyal said:
You know.....

Now you got me thinking because I used to do remodeling and am reconsidering going back into some kind of handyman service thing with the economy the way it is.

But.....I liked your point of the previous owner/descendant. If the current owner has no knowledge of the house's history and no kinship to the original owners.....

I think I'd have to be mighty sly in dealing with that situation. Maybe a conversation when I get an idea I may have found something like..."Gee Mrs.Smith..you know a house this old might have stuff in the walls. If I find anything I can work a deal with you on the job cost or we could split a find."

The only thing I ever found in my days of contracting was a big bag of marijuana under some furniture I had to move. I left it be...not because I was honest...I was scared of what the guy would do if he found it missing.

That sure is a hit or miss find though. My uncle did demo work all his years and never found any kind of treasure...except some old bottles which he collected.

Something to think about though...if I was ever to be so lucky.
Al
First, I would research finders/keepers laws in your state or municipality or locality and possibly find how this was dealt in actual cases. Familiarity of laws affecting your employment will always be helpful. As the saying goes, ignorance of the law...

I wouldn't mention finding anything anywhere unless I ascertained that I was dealing with descendants. If I was dealing with descendants then I would broach the subject by asking if they know of any tales of valuables being hidden but unfound. If the answer is "Yes" or "No," I would draw up a simple contract/agreement where I would receive an agreed-upon percentage if anything turned up. That document, dated and signed, would stand up in court.

Should they not agree to signing a paper and you found something, then you would have to use your conscience to guide you. Although I'm as honest as you, if I were to find a cache of cash, coins/papers, I'd keep a souvenir since no total figure or amount would be known.

The main thing to always keep in mind is that you don't want to lose your cool and have a brain failure when you are faced with a situation you've never faced before. Always think about possible alternatives to a variety of situations you might find yourself in and once you are in one of those situations, your previous thinking about it will rescue you from possibly embarrassing yourself.

BTW, there have been TV documentaries on remodeling contractors finding things behind walls such as a trove of original movie posters, historical documents such as a folded copy of the Declaration Of Independence, and all kinds of large and small valuables.

You don't have to be a Boy Scout to "be prepared." And, keep a diary.

Silver Fox
 

Way to go silverfox you nailed it,there was a house up here the people were old and had lot's of money, when they died some one bot the houes tour a wall out, silling and so forth.Don't know what they found.Wassen't long sold the houes.Next owner gave it a shot reremodle it.Must of thought they mist somethen it wasn't long they sold it. Ho no's what they fond. then the house sat empty for the longest time.but now it's being ocupied, there a nice old couple but i don't know if there rich.this happen in the early 80's when i was a young teenager, funny how you remember thoe's story. I live in a small town so there was a lot of talk about it but.And when they where all asked if they found enything they all reply No. Take Care silverfox liftloop
 

I'm telling y'all straight up. If I ever find a trunk full of money or 50 or 60 pounds of gold coins,
ain't nobody going to know about it except my wife. I'll figure out a way to tithe on it without drawing attention to myself (the church always gets their cut on everything), but besides that, no pictures,
no mention to the public (including y'all). I feel like asking the people that share finds like these if
they were dropped on their heads as children. Tell people about your cool relic finds, the occasional
ring, old coin or two, sure. Not the big ones. It's fun to hear about them, but you are asking for
trouble when you spill the beans on the big finds.

HH,
Ramapirate
 

I second the views of the Pirate.

Coins and things are cool to share, but as much as I like you all.........
Well, I guess I just don't like you enough to take a chance on losing a great find.

LOL
Mark
 

I'll tell you what promoted my synicism. About 10 years ago my mom's first cousin passed
away, no will. The closest kin he had were my mom and her sister, or so we thought. One of the nosey relatives asked if his father remarried after he divorced his mom the day after my mom's 1st cousin was
born. Like morons, they dug into it and found out he had a half sister that he'd never met, didn't even know about. They found her and she ended up getting everything. Yeah , I guess it was the right legal thing to do, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
I'm keeping my pie hole shut.

HH,
Ramapirate
 

I agree with the Pirate 100%. If I find it, it's mine. I worry about details later... much later.
 

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Saturna said:
[/youtube]

Thanks for that, Saturna. One of my favorite songs and the Tremeloes look s-o-o-o retro! It was nice seeing them do the song but I'll stick by the original 45, superior studio version.

Silver Fox
 

SWR said:
The short version:

A contractor that removes property not contracted to remove, is theft.
That is one way to see it. But a renovator is contracted to remove and replace. A contractee doesn't give to the contractor the removed debris (unless requested). It is removed and recycled and/or discarded. Finding artifacts not known to the property owner cannot be claimed by the property owner because there is no knowledge to fall back on. It's nebulous. Unless the property owner was told by the previous owner that there might be hidden treasure which is where finding out the history of the property before work is begun that helps decide whether the renovator reveals what is found.

BTW, your signature: ANY claim requires evidence, whether extraordinary or not. Sagan went overboard with the extraordinary part of that quote.
 

deepskyal said:
My feelings would have to be more on a case by case situation.

An abandoned house...no doubt my mouth would be sealed....definately finders keepers :thumbsup:

But...that was a remodeling job at someones house. If it's in their house...I figure its their's.

If I found a box in someone's wall...I'd be curious as heck at what it was...but I'd let the owner...who was obviously there...know I found something. Who's to say the owner might not have put it there themselves.

Not so in this particular incident, but it could have been put there by her...and then if you said nothing...you'd be a thief.

Al

exactly. :thumbsup: a contractor working in someone elses house has no right to something found in that house, period. ....." oh look i found this flat screen tv in your living room!" ::) this guy was a greedy A-hole. that lady didnt have to offer him the 10% she offered. greed will destroy this country someday. everyone thinks they are owed something anymore.
 

hollowpointred said:
deepskyal said:
My feelings would have to be more on a case by case situation.

An abandoned house...no doubt my mouth would be sealed....definately finders keepers :thumbsup:

But...that was a remodeling job at someones house. If it's in their house...I figure its their's.

If I found a box in someone's wall...I'd be curious as heck at what it was...but I'd let the owner...who was obviously there...know I found something. Who's to say the owner might not have put it there themselves.

Not so in this particular incident, but it could have been put there by her...and then if you said nothing...you'd be a thief.

Al

exactly. :thumbsup: a contractor working in someone elses house has no right to something found in that house, period. ....." oh look i found this flat screen tv in your living room!" ::) this guy was a greedy A-hole. that lady didnt have to offer him the 10% she offered. greed will destroy this country someday. everyone thinks they are owed something anymore.
Without going against your (by that I mean everyone's) opinion, one has to respect the views of those who are engaged in the business because, sometimes, experience is the best teacher. But there are circumstances where even those that are experienced will learn something new, since not everything is known.

Such a case could be this: you buy a house but it needs renovating. You have no concept of anything associated with the house as when you bought it the seller did not divulge any information other than what is required. You hire a renovator (usually called a contractor but in a reality a renovator who is contracted and who may hire others for services and supplies). Normally, the owner may not know a single thing about the house except that its innards need to be modernized so a lot of its interior is going to be replaced and the renovator is going to haul away the debris.

Now, the question is: "If while you, the renovator, is tearing down you find something of value that the new owner had no concept of, do you enrich the new owner by declaring what is found?

As it's been expressed, taking what is not yours is theft. Taking what doesn't "belong" to the new house buyer is... ? Or does a bill of sale for the house automatically give the new owner the right of ownership to whatever was left behind, unknown to the new owner? These might seem to be self-explanatory questions but there is a lot of possible legality to the answers.

This is the reason why I mentioned doing research into the laws that cover such circumstances to see how they were used and their results.

Silver Fox
 

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