Finding stuff others have missed with my great detector story

[pulltabfelix]

These are some of the many comments I have heard about the 800 or the XP Deus in terms of finding targets others have missed.

"I hunted this site many times with brand x and found these many (fill in a number) overlooked targets." The implication being that the 600 or 800, or XP Deus is so much better than other detectors.
So lets say you hunted with a Garrett AT Pro for years on a certain property and found lots of targets and think you have found everything. Then you buy an 800 or XP Deus and find more targets. That really does not tell you anything conclusive. Because if you came back over that same certain property with the AT Pro with a more careful search and proper techniques you would find missed targets and think your AT Pro is the best detector yet.

What I am thinking, no matter how many times you hunt a property, you will miss targets. Why? There are just too many variables in a hunt each of which can cause you to miss a target. Like did you pass on that iffy target, did you really grid the property (few of us really do in my opinion). Was there good coil control towards the end of the hunt when you were tired? Was the ground bone dry? Were your settings on your detector properly set for that property? Did you skip over areas that were harder to hunt like a among the rocks and trees? Most of us just go out and have fun and do our best, but often our best will still involve hunts with missed targets.

So when I hear the often repeated phrases like "with my 800 I found targets that others missed." or the "XP Deus is great at unmasking target" I think, so what else is new. I think the the other often used phrase "a site is never hunted out and there are always more good targets to be had" is more more appropriate. Yes the low hanging fruit cherry picking days are probably over on well hunted sites, but nobody gets all the good targets because nobody usually takes the trouble to effectively grid a site and hunt it properly.

The exception is experienced ocean beach hunters who will grid a section of the wet beach that section is producing heavy objects because that is where the goodies are concentrated by ocean wind, waves and currents.

Yes the Equinox and XP Desus are good at unmasking if set up properly for a hunt site, but the same can be said about many detectors made in the last 10 years. It is not so much the detector but rather prior sloppy or casual hunts on a property that leaves a lot of targets still in the ground.

It is human nature for someone to buy the latest brand XYZ detector and take it on a previously hunted site and say, wow, my XYZ is doing so much better than my old ABC detector. You are just making yourself feel good on your new purchase. Hey, I have been there. Owned the Garrett AT Pro for years, bought the 800 and was proud of my purchase, then disappointed, then frustrated, then read good some decent 800 books by Clive and others and learned more about metal detecting from the forums and how to use the 800 properly. Three years later, I have a more realistic opinion of my 800. Yes a fine machine, but one better understand it and learn how to effectively use it or you were just wasting your money and you would have been just as well off with a Simplex + or Vanquish or the still great Garrett AT Pro.

 

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[Lenrac2]

True. We have been over the same spots with the same machines that we thought we cleaned out and still found stuff we missed. But the new machines still a little better than my old Coinmaster.

 

[smokeythecat]

True. I have gone back over my sites and still found stuff. The machine doesn't matter as much as the operator. Unless it cost under $100. I found a gold hoop earring today. Looking for the other one (which was not there), I found that tiny slide on friction holder - all 1/4" inch of it, IF its' that big.

 

[ARC]

Different things come up on different detectors on different days.

Angle of attack... speed of swing... charge on batteries... on and on and on.

Not to mention soil moisture or lack of at the moment your coil passes... or exact slope / height of swing / end arc... etc...

sheesh a hair too far / much is / can be... too much and out of signal reach... again... with above variables all at play as well.

 

[smokeythecat]

And don't forget soil moisture content and soil and air temps.

 

[vferrari]

These are some of the many comments I have heard about the 800 or the XP Deus in terms of finding targets others have missed.

"I hunted this site many times with brand x and found these many (fill in a number) overlooked targets." The implication being that the 600 or 800, or XP Deus is so much better than other detectors.
So lets say you hunted with a Garrett AT Pro for years on a certain property and found lots of targets and think you have found everything. Then you buy an 800 or XP Deus and find more targets. That really does not tell you anything conclusive. Because if you came back over that same certain property with the AT Pro with a more careful search and proper techniques you would find missed targets and think your AT Pro is the best detector yet.

What I am thinking, no matter how many times you hunt a property, you will miss targets. Why? There are just too many variables in a hunt each of which can cause you to miss a target. Like did you pass on that iffy target, did you really grid the property (few of us really do in my opinion). Was there good coil control towards the end of the hunt when you were tired? Was the ground bone dry? Were your settings on your detector properly set for that property? Did you skip over areas that were harder to hunt like a among the rocks and trees? Most of us just go out and have fun and do our best, but often our best will still involve hunts with missed targets.

So when I hear the often repeated phrases like "with my 800 I found targets that others missed." or the "XP Deus is great at unmasking target" I think, so what else is new. I think the the other often used phrase "a site is never hunted out and there are always more good targets to be had" is more more appropriate. Yes the low hanging fruit cherry picking days are probably over on well hunted sites, but nobody gets all the good targets because nobody usually takes the trouble to effectively grid a site and hunt it properly.

The exception is experienced ocean beach hunters who will grid a section of the wet beach that section is producing heavy objects because that is where the goodies are concentrated by ocean wind, waves and currents.

Yes the Equinox and XP Desus are good at unmasking if set up properly for a hunt site, but the same can be said about many detectors made in the last 10 years. It is not so much the detector but rather prior sloppy or casual hunts on a property that leaves a lot of targets still in the ground.

It is human nature for someone to buy the latest brand XYZ detector and take it on a previously hunted site and say, wow, my XYZ is doing so much better than my old ABC detector. You are just making yourself feel good on your new purchase. Hey, I have been there. Owned the Garrett AT Pro for years, bought the 800 and was proud of my purchase, then disappointed, then frustrated, then read good some decent 800 books by Clive and others and learned more about metal detecting from the forums and how to use the 800 properly. Three years later, I have a more realistic opinion of my 800. Yes a fine machine, but one better understand it and learn how to effectively use it or you were just wasting your money and you would have been just as well off with a Simplex + or Vanquish or the still great Garrett AT Pro.

Agree with pretty much everything you are saying here with a few exceptions. Everything folks said about detectorist skill set, soil conditions, target variables, and the fact that targets are actually moving around in the ground under the influence of several natural and manmade forces such as frost heave, rodent action, and the plow. But I believe in the addage that you won't find if you don't get the coil over the target. Therefore, I believe that coil coverage is the biggest factor in sites not being "hunted out" or the perception that the latest run through the site with quality finds proves that the detector being used is better than the other. We really do not have a good way to ensure that our coil covers every centimeter of ground even if we are meticulous about taking the time to grid a site. There is always going to be missed areas. Bottom line, I agree that just because you find new things at a site, you haven't really proven anything about the capabilities of that new detector other than it works.

I don't necessary agree with the statement that "the Equinox and XP Desus are good at unmasking if set up properly for a hunt site, but the same can be said about many detectors made in the last 10 years" Not true, the Equinox and XP Deus are good unmaskers primarily because they have unparalleled recovery speeds and other than the analog Tesoro's no other recent detector (including Vanquish, Simplex, Apex, or even the higher end but older Nokta/Makro detectors and certainly not the older Whites, Garrett, or First Texas medium range to high range detectors) have matched these processing speeds. There are other factors that aid in unmasking such as iron handling capability, but the fact is recovery speed dominates, and Deus and Equinox dominate in recovery speed. Simple as that.

FWIW

 

[crashbandicoot]

And don't forget soil moisture content and soil and air temps.

Moon phase and tide,plus you got to hold your mouth just right.Coriolis effect,depending on which hemisphere you live in!

 

[treasureguy56]

All of the above being said , one of the biggest If not the biggest is your own personal mindset , especially for a detectorist with the basic skill set . Using a newer metal detector or newer tech can help you , especially If you believe in the machine you just bought - Sometimes ( especially In My Own Case ) it forces you to pay more attention to the little and sometimes big details that can lazily and easily over looked .

 

[sprailroad]

You just can't cover every square inch of planet earth. Gridding?, in a large field woods etc. not really going to happen unless you plan to make a career out of that one place, although, parking strip, small coil? well ya, OK. Actually, all you guys, (and Gals) are right. That's why I say, "You just never know" every time I go out. Also, as had been mentioned, frame of mind has alot to do with it I believe, if your just not feeling it, it's just not going to happen. Anyway, so far it's been a 35 year hobby, haven't grown tired of it yet.

 

[pulltabfelix]

True, with areas that were or are rich in targets, I slow down and adjust my 800 settings appropriately and hunt that area carefully. If I remove a lot of targets and junk, I take off my 10 x 5 coil and put on my stock 11" coil and adjust my settings to hunt for deeper targets.

 

[bigscoop]

Faster recovery speeds have little to do with the unmasking of targets. Faster recovery speeds allow for less target processing time, not more. Longer recovery speeds allow for more target processing time, not less. Over fairly clean ground it's not really an issue other then a little additional loss in depth as recovery speeds increase but in heavy trash faster recovery speeds have to decide which returns become the priority and which ones don't. So in reality faster recovery speeds can actually cost you targets because the weaker/fainter returns are often filtered out in favor of the stronger and more reliable returns. It's for this same reason that most disc detectorist who utilize these faster recovery speeds often complain about the complete lack of deep targets.

 

[vferrari]

Faster recovery speeds have little to do with the unmasking of targets. Faster recovery speeds allow for less target processing time, not more. Longer recovery speeds allow for more target processing time, not less. Over fairly clean ground it's not really an issue other then a little additional loss in depth as recovery speeds increase but in heavy trash faster recovery speeds have to decide which returns become the priority and which ones don't. So in reality faster recovery speeds can actually cost you targets because the weaker/fainter returns are often filtered out in favor of the stronger and more reliable returns. It's for this same reason that most disc detectorist who utilize these faster recovery speeds often complain about the complete lack of deep targets.

A lot of what you are saying here is true if you think of the coil as being stationary over targets of varying target strengths, but your explanation doesn't take into account the fact that targets are detected in a timed sequence as the coil sweeps across the ground kind of like the coil is stationary and the targets are moving under it like a conveyor belt. When you think of it in that context, faster recovery speed certainly does improve adjacent target unmasking because it completes the previous target's processing in time to pickup the next target that is passing under coil. Or another way to look at it, the faster recovery speed enables you to resolve targets that are much closer together on the "conveyor belt" or on a conveyor belt that is moving faster (coil sweep speed). Whether the target signal is strong or weak does not affect how quickly it takes to process the target signal or what the machine "decides" to process, it simply processes the targets in first come, first served sequence as it encounters them during the coil sweep. But you are absolutely right that weaker, small or deep target signals may get truncated and become harder to pick up at higher recovery speeds, thus in effect, reducing detection depth.

 

[bigscoop]

A lot of what you are saying here is true if you think of the coil as being stationary over targets of varying target strengths, but your explanation doesn't take into account the fact that targets are detected in a timed sequence as the coil sweeps across the ground kind of like the coil is stationary and the targets are moving under it like a conveyor belt. When you think of it in that context, faster recovery speed certainly does improve adjacent target unmasking because it completes the previous target's processing in time to pickup the next target that is passing under coil. Or another way to look at it, the faster recovery speed enables you to resolve targets that are much closer together on the "conveyor belt" or on a conveyor belt that is moving faster (coil sweep speed). Whether the target signal is strong or weak does not affect how quickly it takes to process the target signal or what the machine "decides" to process, it simply processes the targets in first come, first served sequence as it encounters them during the coil sweep. But you are absolutely right that weaker, small or deep target signals may get truncated and become harder to pick up at higher recovery speeds, thus in effect, reducing detection depth.

"Time".....two target signatures that are overlapping, one nonferrous deeper target partially masked by a much shallower nonferrous target, in this scenario, which is one that I encounter all of the time, I'll take the Excal or Sov any day over machines with faster recovery speeds. There's a reason why faster recovery speeds come at the cost of depth. A faster recovery speed isn't making the search field smaller, or shallower, it's simply increasing the filtering processing and reducing the "processing time" allowed for those weaker/fainter/uncertain target returns. This is why so many quality targets are missed by these faster recovery speeds on "the initial pass" because it all has to do with time and the required filtering process in order to achieve those faster recovery speeds. Apply a faster recovery speed with a swift coil sweep and one is simply shooting themselves in the foot. I routinely pull good targets from heavily trashy areas that others won't even go near even with those faster recovery speeds and even if they do I still pull the same amount of good targets from these places with slower recovery speeds. Faster recovery speeds provide poor coverage, not better coverage, especially true in the vertical sense. And it's all due to time.

 

[vferrari]

"Time".....two target signatures that are overlapping, one nonferrous deeper target partially masked by a much shallower nonferrous target, in this scenario, which is one that I encounter all of the time, I'll take the Excal or Sov any day over machines with faster recovery speeds. There's a reason why faster recovery speeds come at the cost of depth. A faster recovery speed isn't making the search field smaller, or shallower, it's simply increasing the filtering processing and reducing the "processing time" allowed for those weaker/fainter/uncertain target returns. This is why so many quality targets are missed by these faster recovery speeds on "the initial pass" because it all has to do with time and the required filtering process in order to achieve those faster recovery speeds. Apply a faster recovery speed with a swift coil sweep and one is simply shooting themselves in the foot. I routinely pull good targets from heavily trashy areas that others won't even go near even with those faster recovery speeds and even if they do I still pull the same amount of good targets from these places with slower recovery speeds. Faster recovery speeds provide poor coverage, not better coverage, especially true in the vertical sense. And it's all due to time.

Great points, especially considering targets that are masked vertically, where recovery speed that facilitates horizontal separation can't really help - in that case, it all comes down to how good the signal processing is to differentiate between the multiple targets, some machines do this better than others and they don't necessarily have to be fast. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a "fast" machine is incapable of doing it. The best of both worlds is a machine that can resolve and process such signals quickly without a depth penalty and that is certainly doable if you use processing power and speed to execute powerfully effective signal processing algorithms - however, time still comes into play when the coil is in motion and sometimes it is helpful to "ignore" the next target that is coming under the coil while you process the first one. I think the key here is to realize is that unmasking and separation ability are not necessarily the same thing though they are related. A machine that can separate horizontally adjacent targets well, takes advantage of its fast recovery speed but it may also have depth limitations on weaker signals, a machine that can unmask vertical/overlapping targets well takes advantage of its superior signal processing to recognize multiple targets are simultaneously under that coil at a give swing moment and gives the detectorist the right information to make the dig decision but may miss that next target during the swing while it is busy processing the two vertical targets.

This also explains why using the right tool for the job is important and also why swing angle and technique is important. Finally, just a plug for machines like Deus and Equinox that have fast processing capability, but for which you also have the ability to dial down processing/recovery speed to trade separation for depth as the situation warrants. I am a big proponent of hitting a site with multiple different machines if you can, different settings and characteristics of the different machines and coils can cause targets to light up that are basically invisible to other machines even when those other machines might be considered "better" in most cases. If you don't have the luxury of hitting a site with multiple detectors, but do have different coils, then do that. If you only have one machine and one coil, then having a versatile machine where you can dial up different frequencies, different multifrequency modes, different discrimination modes, and/or different recovery speeds is like having multiple machines in one package. Equinox is such a machine, the key to Equinox is not so much its multifrequency or speed but the fact that you can shift to many different setting configurations to make it behave like a single frequency machine and trade of separation vs. depth through adjustable recovery speeds. It's almost like having 5 or more different detectors in one.

 

[bigscoop]

I have both machines, both of the Excal/Sov series and the 800, know both of them very well. Like I've said, "most of my hunting is in the trash" and day in and day out the Excal/Sov series with the stock 8" coil will eat the 800's lunch regardless how the 800 is setup. About the only time I use the 800 anymore is when I'm land hunting in a location where I have to limit my digging. I like the machine but it's certainly not in the same class as the Excal/Sov series "in the environments that I hunt." If I'm looking for easy targets I may use the 800 but when I'm looking for hard targets I leave it at home.

 

[vferrari]

I have both machines, both of the Excal/Sov series and the 800, know both of them very well. Like I've said, "most of my hunting is in the trash" and day in and day out the Excal/Sov series with the stock 8" coil will eat the 800's lunch regardless how the 800 is setup. About the only time I use the 800 anymore is when I'm land hunting in a location where I have to limit my digging. I like the machine but it's certainly not in the same class as the Excal/Sov series "in the environments that I hunt." If I'm looking for easy targets I may use the 800 but when I'm looking for hard targets I leave it at home.

I had both machines too, but the Excal made an exit shortly after the Equinox showed up in my case because I was not doing enough detecting geared toward the strength of the Excal (submerged salt water hunting). The Deus and Equinox suit me best in the environments I hunt, especially in highly mineralized relic sites, but is versatile enough to accomplish the lighter intensity beach hunting I occasionally enjoy. Tarsacci is also filling in some of the Equinox gaps in that regard, too. Yep, totally agree, right tool for the job and that often means no one tool can do it all.

 

[bigscoop]

Heavy trash line this evening on a local freshwater lake (waterline) with Excal with 8" coil running in silent mode, lots of clad and another deep (8-9") 10K ring. Ring is just 1.3 grams. If I was running the threshold at an audible level it would just be constantly shifting back and forth or even remain in a state of null as this waterline is absolutely littered with iron and loads of nonferrous trash.

 

[sprailroad]

All good points fella's, not to forget, "Location, Location, Location", if nothing is there, its not going to be found. Having said that, waiting for a machine that will just suck the target up out of the ground for me, so as not to get down on one knee, then push myself up again. I'd buy that puppy in a heartbeat.

 

[pulltabfelix]

All good points fella's, not to forget, "Location, Location, Location", if nothing is there, its not going to be found. Having said that, waiting for a machine that will just suck the target up out of the ground for me, so as not to get down on one knee, then push myself up again. I'd buy that puppy in a heartbeat.

I agree with you. Have not found the machine, but did find the exact shovel that keeps me from 90% of my prior kneeling. I my lesche at 31 inches was too short. I bought two shovels from the big box hardware store. One with a longer 38" wooden handle, but too big of a shovel head, and a short one with the right sized shovel head, but too short of a wooden handle. Simply removed the shove heads and switched handles. Now have a long 38" wooden handled with the smaller 6" wide shovel head. This along with my 800 coiltek 10 x 5 nox coil and my Steve's rods carbon fiber shaft, I have shed weight and can now hunt much, much longer for a guy my age. The shovel was a big improvement because getting up and down was wearing me out. Now I can dig a plug standing up, remove the plug, use my detector to see if target is in plug or hole and either scoop more out of hole or halve the plug and find the target.

 

[Bart@Big Boys Hobbies]

Different things come up on different detectors on different days.

Angle of attack... speed of swing... charge on batteries... on and on and on.

Not to mention soil moisture or lack of at the moment your coil passes... or exact slope / height of swing / end arc... etc...

sheesh a hair too far / much is / can be... too much and out of signal reach... again... with above variables all at play as well.

Great post here!

I always try to hit a good spot from several different angles. At least 90? from the first direction I originally hunted it at. When I find some really good spots I hit it from every angle possible. Moisture makes a big difference as well.

I use XP Deus, Equinox 800 and then the CTX 3030 on good producing spots before I move on. Then often come back several months later and can find more. Weather effects and soil conditions sometimes can help to!