Fined in San Francisco

[Gone Diggin Doug]

I went metal detecting last Sunday, 25 Oct, at Lafayette Park in San Francisco. Within 10 minutes a dog walker asked me if I was going to dig up the whole park in a rather *****y attitude. I told her that I do fill in all the holes that I dig and take whatever trash I find with me. I guess that didn't matter to her. About an hour or so later a park ranger shows up and tells me that I can't dig in the park. I explained that I was told that I could not metal detect at the beach by a park ranger and I asked that person if I could detect the city parks, she said that is fine. I also told him that I have asked a city police officer if metal detecting was allowed in the city parks and he said that was ok as well. This guy wasn't hearing it, I explained that I fill in my holes and take any trash I find with me and throw away at home. I was cited for a non traffic violation: SEC. 3.14. PERFORMANCE OF LABOR.
No person, other than duly authorized personnel, shall perform any labor, on or upon any park, including, but not limited to, taking up or replacing soil, turf, ground, pavement, structure, tree, shrub, plant, grass, flower and the like, without permission of the Recreation and Park Department.
(Added by Ord. 603-81, App. 12/18/81)
The park ranger had to call back to get an ordinance code number for the violation and the exact wording, the guy on the other end of the radio was stating malicious destruction of property and I started laughing at the absurdity of it all.

I jokingly asked if the fine was 75 cents since that was about what I had found that morning and he laughed pretty hard and said no it is about $60. For all you metal detectorists out there I just wanted to let you know that SF is a no go unless you want to hazard a fine.

Gone Diggin Doug

 

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[patiodadio]

Can't you appeal or protest the ticket ?

 

[cazisme]

Should of told them you were looking for your rainbow pin that your significant other lost, they would of gotten the whole fire department out their looking for you.

 

[Mackaydon]

Should have told them you were looking for your Special Forces or Medal of Honor medal.
Don.......

 

[niv.dob]

Are there any legitimate places to dig in San Francisco??

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Gone-diggin Doug: I'm about 1.5 hrs. south of SF, and have detected scores of parks there. I've gotten silver from Lafayette before There's a LOT in your post, so let's start with what you said about the beach:

a) No doubt, you were probably on one of the GGNRA (federal) beaches. And yes, that's said to be true of the federal beaches there (thankfully not much of the CA coastline is fed!). So we can nix that from the conversation, as a given. But I must add as an aside: there have been others detecting some of those beaches (Stinson for instance), who simply honestly didn't know any better, and went for months-on-end unbothered. Yup, even in full view of rangers, etc... But for sake of conversation, let's just assume that the GGNRA beaches there are a no-no.

b) The person who booted you from the beach, when hearing your question about SF city parks, was no doubt realizing that the SF city parks are CITY owned. And hence outside the say-so of any federal rules. But that's not to say that he necessarily knew whether there was or wasn't any specific rule that might have said "no metal detectors in SF city parks". He was probably just telling you that to distinguish that that's city, as opposed to fed.

c) Interesting that you say that a griper accosted you. And you are probably very right that that's the ONLY reason why a cop showed up later on. And in SF, trust me: The cops have BIGGER fish to fry (which is why an entire hour went by before any cop showed up). But I can assure you that if that VERY SAME COP had just happen chance driven by, he'd have NEVER HAVE PAID YOU a moment's notice. The ONLY reason he was there, was that they got a call, and he was duty-bound to please miss nosy parker busy-body. Ie.: to justify his having been called out, etc...

d) there is no specific "no metal detectors" rule/law in SF city parks. As your ticket shows, they're relying on ancillary verbage about deface or alter or "taking up", etc... of turf, flowers, shrubs, etc....

e) If you were not leaving marks, holes, etc... then technically you have not run afoul. Because all such rules IMPLICITLY refer to the END result. Alter versus AlterED. Deface versus DefacED. And I would venture "taking up" versus takEN up.

f) there was a similar case in SF, years ago, where an md'r had the same fate. And like yours , a nuisance $60 or whatever. But he decided to fight it. He stood his turn in the cattle call lineup of petty cases (vagrancy, shoplifters, jay-walkers, etc...) His turn came , and he started to read his scripted line, as the judge looked down at his papers. It went something like this:

"Your honor, I don't know what this is all about. I was just metal detecting looking for loose change as my hobby. And the next thing I knew, I was being told this damages something, but there was no trace whatsoever. I have looked at city codes , and saw nothing forbidding this hobby. And I ....."

Upon realizing that this person was there for METAL DETECTING for pete's sake, the judge never even let the guy finish his scripted lines. Before the md'r could finish, the judge pounded his gavel and said "dismissed". The md'r told some of his fellow club members about this. And they asked him to xerox that rubber stamped "dismissed" paper work, so they could all carry it , if accosted in the future. But to my knowledge, no one ever needed it, as there has been no tickets since then. Except that someone a few months on T'net got a ticket there, but.... to my knowledge, never came back to say what the end result was. Perhaps they just paid it since it's so silly and small, JUST to save the time & gas money to go there and fight it. Ie.: a cost-to-be-paid (just like we all inevitably get a speeding ticket if you drive long enough). Or perhaps he fought it. I don't know, as he never followed through with the end result.

g) Like I offered the previous fellow, I can probably track down the copy of that ticket, as I know some long time hunters up there, who would remember the deal. And having that would be good to show perhaps, if you chose to seek to get it dismissed.

h) In your particular case, I notice that you had 1) been told by the beach person that it's ok [even though that answer could be disputed], and 2) you had asked a police officer [that's a much stronger point, but I'd hesitate to drop the officer's name, lest someone start "making a stink" and talking to that officer, and then ... well gee, guess what will be on his mind from then on out?]

Bottom line is, the parks there get detected routinely. And barring an occasional scram by a gardener in a bad mood, no one cares. And same for your case: It was not the cop that didn't like it, it was some busy-body who couldn't mind her own business. And the cop was merely responding to a call-out (as you said yourself, had to really think hard to determine what applies to write on the ticket.). If they used "destruction" , then your defense is that you destructED nothing.

I think you have an iron clad defense, considering some person had even said "yes" (although I don't normally advocate seeking permission, doh! ) And in the future, try to pick low traffic times when such lookie-lous aren't out there. I even hunt some SF parks at night JUST because of this "busy-body" phenomenon. NOT because I think it's doing anything illegal, but simply because, sure, it has ... uh ... "connotations".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Are there any legitimate places to dig in San Francisco??

Depends on what you mean by "legitimate". Do you mean red carpets rolled out, with signs saying "metal detecting welcome here" ? If so, then no. But then again, nor will any place in the entire USA have that. There is NO gaurantee that you will be 100% safe from some yahoo coming up and making a claim (that you hurt earthworms, or endangered tree bark, etc....). Even if you'd been at the most innocuous park sandbox in the entire USA, someone could say you're violating lost & found laws, etc.... It's never ending.

So for me, If I were in SF, I would not hesitate for a moment to go right to Lafayette, even after just reading this. I've spent countless hours in SF parks. And gotten in on some GREAT park scrapes there (when they made way for artificial turf) which produced hundreds of silver coins for us. And I have NEVER gotten a ticket (oh sure, a scram or two). And actually quite the opposite: A cop or gardener could come up and ask "what's the best thing you've ever found ?" , and "where can I buy one of those?", etc...

A humorous incident went down at the famous Garfield Square scrape in 2006: A bunch of guys were in their doing their nightly thing ('cuz we had to wait for the workers to cut out after 5pm each day, and then we'd work in late into the night). And a shooting or something must've went down in the neighborhood, because within a minute, the streets were crawling with cop cars! And a cop came running through the park (we think he was looking for a getaway suspect). And lo & behold he sees 3 or 4 guy md'ing all the construction site scraped dirt. He asked the obvious "who are you and what are you doing ?" But then just rolled his eyes and said "I got bigger fish to fry. Have you seen a man matching such & such description?" To which the md'rs said "no". He left , and they resumed md'ing (albeit a bit shaken up that a shooting had gone down so closeby, doh!)

 

[xr7ator]

I knew you would chime in Tom. Well said.

 

[stefen]

next time tell the that yur voting for you buddy, Neusum for Govenor, and see how hard they laugh...

 

[SeabeeRon]

Is it worth it to you to fight the citation? $60 is a good chunk of change!!

 

[Mackaydon]

What defense could be put up after admitting a clear violation of the ordinance?
Might be best use of time to pay the fine, learn the lesson and the rules- and move on--IMO.
Don.....

 

[SeabeeRon]

What defense could be put up after admitting a clear violation of the ordinance?
Might be best use of time to pay the fine, learn the lesson and the rules- and move on--IMO.
Don.....

You may be correct Don! The ordinance used just struck me as odd?!? Like he had to really reach to find something to site!

SEC. 3.14. PERFORMANCE OF LABOR.
No person, other than duly authorized personnel, shall perform any labor, on or upon any park, including, but not limited to, taking up or replacing soil, turf, ground, pavement, structure, tree, shrub, plant, grass, flower and the like, without permission of the Recreation and Park Department.
(Added by Ord. 603-81, App. 12/18/81)

Hope the OP will be back with more info.

 

[digging440yrs]

"shall perform any labor"---its not labor-its a fun hobby

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Don & Ron, you're absolutely right: For $60, it's not worth the time to take off work, and the gas it takes to drive across town , stand in line, and fight it.

If I were to make the decision to just pay, and not fight it, it would not mean I'd "learned my lesson and wouldn't hunt SF parks again" though. I would most certainly continue to hunt SF city parks Because I would consider the OP's case to be of the category of "fluke". Ie.: only d/t a griper.

The harsh reality is, you have to TRY to ever have such a thing happen there in that city. The O.P. could probably go for the next 50 yrs. with only a slight possibility of "scram" in the future. So even the paperwork of "dismissed" might never come in handy (and is questionable that it would deflect all busy-bodies anyhow, as that too could fall on deaf ears).

I knew a guy who was walking across a state park property, having come from PRIVATE PROPERTY (with permission) on his way back to his parked truck. His detector was off, and slung over his shoulder. He didn't even know he was walking on state park property, as he was only following a trail across a vacant lot to his truck on the street. A state park ranger popped him a ticket (this was not too far from an admittedly sensitive monument, but as I said, he was NOT detecting. He was only walking). He tried to explain this to the ranger, but to no avail.

A week or two later, he got his ticket. Something on the order of $110 or whatever. He was from 4 hr. drive away. So for him to have fought it, would have meant taking an entire day off. He decided to just pay the cotton-picken fine. It's like driving: No matter HOW good you try to drive, you can EXPECT in your life-time to get a speeding ticket, or turn-signal, or cell-phone, etc.... Not saying that makes any of it *right*, but just saying, we're in a hobby where you kinda gotta have a tough skin I guess .

 

[Terry Soloman]

The REAL lesson here if anyone cares to learn it is, you do NOT detect city parks after 730am, period. Sun up till 7am is the sweet spot when no one bothers you.

 

[McClod]

Sheesh, send them a bill for twice the ticket amount for labor performed. I hate it when run into people walking dogs that take that kind of attitude and feel like telling them what I'm doing is far better than letting their dog crap everywhere! I know my answers are off the cuff and not helpful, I'm sorry, but the situation that happened to you is really annoying as hell, I'm sorry you got caught up in it, I think I would opt to go to court to pay the fine after talking to a judge about it if that's even an option, like traffic court? I hope it works out good for you!

 

[watercolor]

The ironic thing about this sad & unfair situation is the folks that crafted this particular law that got you fined probably never even had the "metal detectorist" in their thoughts.
It most likely was written to deter some "golden ager" from digging up a plant bulb or flower from the city's park garden.

If at all possible, I would go to court and take your chances. The worst that could happen is you pay the $60. . . a perfect example of when the "spirit of the law" gets blind-sided by "the letter of the law".

I wish you the best.

 

[Mackaydon]

Remember that SFO is about as far 'left' as you can get.
Don't expect any favorable court decision if you choose to fight this.
Don...... (a California resident for over 50 years)
PS: Heck, you might even get cited for 'contempt of court'

 

[George (MN)]

I remember on some forum years back 1 detectorist in CA was saying they knew of someone who detected San Francisco's Golden Gate City Park every day!! That ordinance was 1981 & I know we didn't have internet so the detecting there was certainly after that. So presumably the person was there dozens, hundreds or thousands of times detecting. How could they be there so many times without the fines piling up? Was there never an insane dog walker there?

Anyone know the current law for Oakland Parks? Just asking as I seem to remember maybe 20-30 years ago they required a permit that was a large (for then) amount, possibly $75? They were afraid of damage I guess & $75 from each person might cover it. But, the club had an arrangement where they would teach non-destructive digging techniques & anyone that joined the club would get as a bonus a free annual detecting pass, IIRC, which I may not!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

The REAL lesson here if anyone cares to learn it is, you do NOT detect city parks after 730am, period. Sun up till 7am is the sweet spot when no one bothers you.

What Terry said ^ ^ ^

I don't know why we md'rs feel the need to think we have to please every last person on earth. Sometimes a little discretion on when not to spit in certain people's holy water, is better than trying to convince them "It's not holy water".