Firmin & Son Military Button I.D

[M4rty5miff]

Hi, I'm a newbie and have been detecting for a few months. I was wondering if anyone had any resources that could shed any light on this button. I can read "108 st Martin's lane' and "london" on the backmark, so I'm assuming it's Firmin & Son, late 19th C. I just wondered if someone could ID the regiment?




TIA

 

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[Red-Coat]

Welcome to Treasurenet. We need pictures of course, but Firmin moved into the premises of St Martin's Lane, London in 1894 and then from 1915 their sole London address was Cork Street. So that's the time frame for your button.

 

[Red-Coat]

Only just saw that you had edited your post to include pictures. I don't think that's a regimental button or any kind of military button. I can't make out the design on the armorial or read the motto, but the shield seems to have a fish each side as supporters and perhaps a bird as the crest. Nothing familiar in that for me. The arms for Edinburgh have fish supporting the armorial, but that's not the city's arms.

You say that you're a newbie, so might I suggest that you familiarise yourself with the term 'livery buttons'... those carrying the coats of arms of 'important' families, but if it is a livery button it's not a family that I recognise. Additionally, large numbers of buttons were produced with fantasy coats of arms, pseudo-military symbolism, nautical themes and such for general use on blazers. Unless some further cleaning of the button reveals a bit more, I would be inclined to think its a fantasy.

 

[fyrffytr1]

I tried to improve the OP's picture. Maybe this will help. It almost looks like an arm on top of the shield.

 

[DCMatt]

I tried to improve the OP's picture. Maybe this will help. It almost looks like an arm on top of the shield.

Agree. Something like this:

 

[DCMatt]

It has to be a version of this:

 

[Red-Coat]

Good call Matt. I should have remembered that ‘Livery’ and armorials apply to companies and trades too. The middle section of the motto does appear to be the ‘OF OVR’ part of their ‘at commandment of our superiors’ motto (for which there are multiple variations) and the ‘fish’ are heraldic dolphins.



A little history:

In Stow’s 1598 survey there were around 40,000 men earning a living on or about the Thames in London, including ‘watermen’ who carried passengers and ‘lightermen’ who carried goods and cargo. The Watermen’s Company was born in 1555 as a kind of regulatory body for their trade, as well as providing apprenticeships. The Lightermen joined the Company in 1700.

They still operate as a working guild today, participating in the traditions of the City of London and providing services to their ‘Freemen’… more than 390 boat owners and 500 ‘Journeymen’ who have completed a five year apprenticeship to become qualified Watermen/Lightermen (now called a ‘Boat Master’s Licence’).

The Livery Companies of the City of London represent historic trades such as the Fishmongers, Apothecaries and Vintners. Most members are generally known as ‘Worshipful Companies’ or ‘modern Livery companies’ if they obtained Livery after 1926. The Company of Watermen and Lightermen is recognised as a City company but is without livery for historic reasons and known simply as ‘The Company of Watermen and Lightermen of the River Thames’.

They still sell items carrying their armorial from their website (including souvenirs) but some of the items, such as buttons, are available only to Company Freemen… hence no pictures of those on the website shop. Here’s a car badge pictured from elsewhere.

 

[CRUSADER]

Welcome to Tnet.

Congrats on an unusual button, for your growing collection.