FOLSOM (Kaolin)

mogi · Jan 24, 2017

3 x 1 1/2 Kaolin Folsom. Pretty nice when your friends drop gifts on ya like this! Thanks Dave!

joshuaream · Jan 29, 2017

Monsterrack,

That is a cool little point. Glad you are keeping it safe, once you sell a personal find like that it's just never the same.

How thick is it? If it's thick, i'd go with something Clovis related. There is a bit of Golondrina found in West Texas, so it could also be a wildly fluted example.

If it's thin, 3.5 mm or less (two stacked quarters), then it could be an odd Folsom related point. There are a couple of Folsom/Midlands out of the Shifting Sands site that have more flare than normal. That site is probably within "Paleo Walking Distance" of where you found your point. One of them is circled in this picture. It's not so much the outline on points like this, it's the way they were made that can help identify them.

monsterrack said:
View attachment 1407587 I picked this one up myself from the sands of Nm. just west of Andrews Tx. and north of the Monahan sand dunes. It is 2in long and 15/16 wide and the very outstanding ears and a double flute to the tip makes it very rare. It's been in a frame for over 30 years and there it will stay till I'm gone and I have been offered some big money for it. Most Folsom's have straight ears some have a flare, I have always been torn between calling it a Clovis or a Folsom. The bottom says Clovis, the top says Folsom. The stone is a Alibates (spelling may be off)

The Grim Reaper · Jan 29, 2017

joshuaream said:
Mogi,

You seem to be a decent fellow (as much as one can tell from these posts: usually polite, respond/encourage members, solid foundation, etc.) so I'm not sure if you are just clueless on relics/replicas/authenticators/fakes or if this is just some odd game you have chosen to play on this forum. If it is the first case, I truly hope you seek out some additional knowledge and attend some relic shows to meet real experts vs those out for profit. If it's the second case, then there really isn't much more to discuss.

I am not a Folsom expert, but I know many of the recognized experts personally, I am friends with collectors who have world class collections of authentic Folsom material and I have had the chance to handle hundreds of authentic points, preforms and bifaces. I've had the good fortune to spend hours and hours in their homes looking at and talking about relics. Your point looks like something an average knapper made to resemble an outline of a Folsom (stubby tip compared to Clovis and nipple on the base.)

You have mentioned that Ancient people did not follow our modern guidebooks, or something to that effect, and fully I agree. There can be tremendous variety between points, but the underlying technology is amazingly consistent. But between this point and the Cumberland you posted a couple of days ago, you are apparently saying that an ancient knapper decided to reinvent their traditional technology on the fly because he was in a hurry? Starting off with the biface those two points deviate from almost every known authentic example and the deviation continues in the proportions, the reduction, the edge treatment, and the fluting. I'd agree that an ancient person wasn't going to starve because they had to discard a piece that didn't fit the mold, but they usually didn't forget the basics of knapping that were handed down through generations...

The dovetails, the birdstones, one of the banners follow the same pattern. Completely outside the norm for authentic examples. The Clovis is a great example made by a well known knapper, he intentionally makes his points easy to recognize. I'm sure you've posted some authentic relics along the way as well. Spend more time with your scope on those examples, and the differences will become clear.

Respectfully,

Joshua

Excellent post Joshua and very well worded. I hope he heeds these words and realizes the people he is buying these pieces from, or getting them as gifts, are taking advantage of him. At the very least, 95% of what he has posted as being bought is a modern piece. I hate to imagine the money he has thrown away on these pieces.

fishstick · Jan 29, 2017

VERY well said Joshua!!!! I'm still puzzled why your friends would just give away piece's worth thousands of $$$

monsterrack · Jan 29, 2017

joshuaream said:
Monsterrack,

That is a cool little point. Glad you are keeping it safe, once you sell a personal find like that it's just never the same.

How thick is it? If it's thick, i'd go with something Clovis related. There is a bit of Golondrina found in West Texas, so it could also be a wildly fluted example.

If it's thin, 3.5 mm or less (two stacked quarters), then it could be an odd Folsom related point. There are a couple of Folsom/Midlands out of the Shifting Sands site that have more flare than normal. That site is probably within "Paleo Walking Distance" of where you found your point. One of them is circled in this picture. It's not so much the outline on points like this, it's the way they were made that can help identify them.

View attachment 1408135

Thanks Joshua it is about 2 stacked quarters thickness and I have never considered that type. This is what I like about this site people that want and will help each other. :notworthy: