Galleon find

piratediver

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Have a look at what the mayor of Buenos Aires says about ownership of the galleon!


Pirate diver

Builders dig up 17th-century galleon in Argentina

Mayor of Buenos Aires prays for gold as archaeologists raise Spanish vessel
found while building apartment block



Archaeologist Marcelo Norman Waissell holds a cannonball near two cannon of
a Spanish galleon found while excavating a Buenos Aires building site.
Photograph: Marcos Brindicci/REUTERS

Construction workers excavating the foundations of a luxury apartment block
overlooking the river Plate in Buenos Aires may have dug up something far
more valuable than what they are building.

The workmen uncovered the well-preserved remains of a 17th-century Spanish
galleon, one of thousands that carried goods across the Atlantic when
Argentina was a Spanish colony.

Eight metres of silt had covered and conserved the galleon in the 300 years
since it sank or was abandoned by colonists.

At that time the exclusive Puerto Madero neighbourhood of the Argentinian
capital was just a beach on the shores of the Plate. "The galleon was buried
under Puerto Madero, in the sedimentation of a beach where many ships used
to arrive centuries ago," explained city hall officials.

Five large cannons and a cannonball were among the first objects found by
archaeologists who joined the workmen to excavate the site properly.

Speculation that the galleon may be carrying treasure is rife in Buenos
Aires, with even the mayor, Mauricio Macri, praying for a find. "I hope
there is a great treasure trove on board," he joked. "That way we can pay
for many more public works."

So far, however, the only objects dug up apart from the cannons are ropes
and old jars of olive oil. The galleon appears to have sunk as it was trying
to reach the port at Buenos Aires.

"We feel it must be Spanish because we have not found signs of anything
English," one archaeologist, Marcelo Weissel, told La Nación newspaper. "Our
hypothesis is that it is from the end of the 17th or the beginning of the
18th century because we have not found any glass recipients which started
appearing from Holland around 1720." Carbon dating would eventually give a
better idea of when the vessel went down, he said.

Mayor Macri ruled out handing over the galleon's contents to Spain, saying
that it belonged to the people of Buenos Aires.

Hernan Lombardi, the head of the city's culture department, said the find
was unique and city archeologists planned to raise the whole ship, which
would later be opened to the public.

"Now is the time to get down to some careful work," he said.

Development in the Puerto Moreno district began a decade ago. A complex of
apartments, shop and offices is due to go up on the site where the galleon
was found.



guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2008
 

I'm surprised Spain doesn't file a lawsuit claiming ownership. Oh, I know why. They haven't struck gold yet!
 

Here is a link with a couple of pics...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2156480/posts

ArgGal.webp


Jay
 

scubasalvor said:
I'm surprised Spain doesn't file a lawsuit claiming ownership. Oh, I know why. They haven't struck gold yet!
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
You never fail to make me laugh Scubasalvor !
Spain has billions of dollars invested in Argentina, they own their Air line, Banks etc
I hope they do find gold ! so they can start paying Spain back on there loans !
PS I have family in Argentina
Ossy
 

Saturna, Thanks for the link, they look like bronze cannons, picture one you can see a scuff make on the tip and its come up
shiny .
They should be able to identify the ship!
Ossy
 

If a company/person/Country were to go through the expense of salvaging a Spanish vessel, and assuming there is no treasure involved with it, will Spain pay the expenses of the recovery?

I have a possible location of one, and I'm curious if Spain will fund the exploration prior to salvaging any possible cargo?
 

Guy In back, I don't know the answer to your question but I'm happy to ask the Spanish authorities.
My personal oppion is, If Spain claim their vessel back, you should be paid for all your expenses plus a finders fee
Looking for Ghosts may be harder to fund !
Good luck with your hunt !
Ossy
 

If you tell spain you found one of their wrecks with treasure or not,they will take it away from you and no matter what you spent on it you will get nothing.Read about the La Galga.

http://www.thehiddengalleon.com/News.htm

Any wreck you find is a unknown or a pirate wreck.Spain doesnt want those wrecks.
 

Guy in Back,

Spain's reaction would probably depend on how good your evidence is. Put yourself in Spain's position. If everybody who thinks, or says they think, that they might know where a Spanish shipwreck approached Spain and asked for funding to locate the wreck, there would be dozens of projects, and you couldn't expect Spain to fund them all. On the other hand, if you had already done enough to show that there was a strong possibility of a Spanish wreck, then they might be interested in helping to fund a recovery. You should ask them, without, of course, revealing the location.

My belief, based on personal conversations with one of the key people involved, is that the SeaHunt case would have turned out quite differently if SeaHunt's attitude to Spain had been more cooperative at the start of their involvement. I believed him. When it became a matter of principle and went to court, Spain, backed by the US Department of State, had to establish its legal rights, and did. It doesn't matter if the wreck that SeaHunt claimed to be La Galga was some other ship. SeaHunt said that the wrecks were the Juno and La Galga in order to get the salvage permits from the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the US Government intervened in order to establish the principle that the 1987 Abandoned Shipwrecks Act did not apply to Spanish ships in US waters, because of the terms of the 1902 Treaty between the US and Spain. When the Court would not recognize that the US Government had any standing in the case, Spain had to intervene itself, and the court's ruling created a set of headlines, such as "Spain declares War on Treasure Hunters!" that were designed to sell newspapers.

You might think that this is exactly what Spain has done with Odyssey, but in my opinion Odyssey brought it all on themselves by their own attitude and actions. They did not have to remove all the coins from the Black Swan before filing their claim, but choose to follow the adage that "Possession is nine tenths of the Law." What Spain's attitude would have been if Odyssey had followed the more reasonable approach they adopted earlier with the UK Government in the case of the Sussex, supposedly found in Spanish waters by the way, we will never know, but I think that Odyssey have now set the tone for the foreseeable future.

It doesn't matter whether SeaHunt were incorrect in the identification of the La Galga, which they probably were: the SeaHunt court case was all about the principle of abandonment, and the interpretation of the 1902 Treaty that the US Government wanted to establish.

The UNESCO Treaty on Underwater Cultural Heritage, which the US has not ratified, but in my opinion was very happy to see put in place, will make it more difficult for Spain now to come to an agreement on any recovery that involves profit sharing, but I would not rule it out.

It depends where your wreck is, of course. Different countries have different attitudes, but if it is a Spanish ship in US waters, then what is the choice but to try to come to an agreement with the wreck's owners? Just loot it and hope you don't get caught before the statute of limitations takes effect? Incidentally, don't forget that if the Spanish ship was privately owned, then the wreck belongs to the current heir of the private owner, not to Spain.

I don't imagine this response will please many subscribers to this forum, but just my opinion, as Cornelius used to say.

Mariner
 

Has or will there ever be a salvage project of the La Galga and Juno?

Diverlynn
 

DL,

SeaHunt found two wreck sites, recovered artefacts from each of them, applied to the Commonwealth of Virginia for, and obtained, a permit to salvage both wrecks. Before they could do so, the US Department of State intervened, followed by Spain. SeaHunt were told to hand over all the artefacts they had recovered from the two sites, and were given no compensation.

I think one of the two sites is that of the Juno, but the identity of the other was always debateable, because of the claims that La Galga had been found elsewhere.

I don't think that the two wrecks found by SeaHunt will ever be salvaged, officially at least, now that the UNESCO Treaty has been put on the table.

Mariner
 

Guy In Back said:
If a company/person/Country were to go through the expense of salvaging a Spanish vessel, and assuming there is no treasure involved with it, will Spain pay the expenses of the recovery?

I have a possible location of one, and I'm curious if Spain will fund the exploration prior to salvaging any possible cargo?
http://www.diario.com.mx/nota.php?notaid=98682621fc0cff6a521cc9b9082eef24



http://es.noticias.yahoo.com/5/20090108/ten-experto-asegura-que-el-barco-del-sig-d798d35.html

(In Spanish)
 

A couple of years ago Cornelius contacted me with an opportunity to work these wrecks. He was sure he had enough pull to get the correct permits in order. Of course with a little research it was clear that there would mega legal problems so it was dismissed.

Diverlynn
 

DL,

Was that before or after the SeaHunt case in 2000 ? Was Cornelius part of the SeaHunt team ? I know he had good relations with the Dutch and East Indies' governments, but I did not know he had any sort of relationship with Spain.

Mariner


Vox,

Must be interesting to be personally involved. Good luck in the identification.

Mariner
 

Mariner, It's nice to see an intelligent response :thumbsup:
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Spain give all the artifacts back to the state of Virginia after the case !
and as far as I know, there in one of their museums .
I just ordered the book ( The hidden Galleon ) very Interesting.
You make a great point, There's no harm in contacting Spain if you have hard facts on a find, of course protect
your information till you get something in writing from Spain !
Ossy
 

Mariner,
Cornelius contacted me in March of '06 after meeting here on TN, he was confident that he could work a deal with the attorneys for Spain. I was working for Florida Research at the time and they were not interested in dealing with a bunch lawyers and I am sure that was what it would be. When I went to work for Amelia the offer was also extended to Doug but again the difficulties in making it happen would have been very time consuming and costly. It was dismissed as too troublesome.

DL
 

My friends,
in June 2003 the Ministry of Culture of Spain signed an agreement with Sea Hunt. Enclosed go the first page and the last one with the Spanish signature of the responsible and the president of Sea Hunt, Peter Knollenberg. The agreement has 9 pages and 12 articles.

The article 4.1 say textually:
....... All the cultural goods extracted in any case will have not commercial treatment and they will be considered goods of public domain.
7.:
...... and keeping in mind that the investigation, study and possibly the recover of the jetsam will be made in the costs and jurisdictional waters of USA, Sea Hunt will obtain the corresponding permits from the sovereign country of the waters.
12.2.C:
..... That the ministry of Culture has intervened in the writing of the Convention of the Underwater Cultural Patrimony approved by the General Assembly of UNESCO on November 2, 2001, and for this reason this Agreement will undergo all settled down in this international agreement.
This didactic agreement didn't like certain people and hazy events happened later on.
 

Attachments

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Vox, Lyn,

This is all very interesting.

Vox:

Is this an agreement under which SeaHunt can salvage the wrecks (and are they Juno and La Galga?) provided they get the necessary permits from the US Federal Courts, and do not commercially sell the artefacts, but rather that the artefacts must remain in the public domain ?

And in terms of the timing, I wonder what Cornelius' role/plan was. With Spain's approval of a salvage, there would be no problem in getting a salvage permit from the Feds, and it would not have needed any further favors from Spain's attorneys, whose position is dictated by their client.

I look forward to hearing more.

Mariner
 

mariner said:
Vox, Lyn,

This is all very interesting.

Vox:

Is this an agreement under which SeaHunt can salvage the wrecks (and are they Juno and La Galga?) provided they get the necessary permits from the US Federal Courts, and do not commercially sell the artefacts, but rather that the artefacts must remain in the public domain ?

And in terms of the timing, I wonder what Cornelius' role/plan was. With Spain's approval of a salvage, there would be no problem in getting a salvage permit from the Feds, and it would not have needed any further favors from Spain's attorneys, whose position is dictated by their client.

I look forward to hearing more.

Mariner


Mariner, take good note:

Article first:
The company Sea Hunt Inc. and the Ministry of Culture celebrate the present Agreement of collaboration with the purpose of propitiating the cultural cooperation among both parts, and especially to dig and to study the ships Juno and Galga using modern underwater archaeological technical of prospecting and excavation according to a scientific project.......

Later on to the signature of the agreement there were strong oppositions in USA to grant the permits and everything finished in smoke.
To Sea Hunt it was recognized the finder's right with a prize of 50% according so what settled down by the Spanish legislation.
 

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