Help on digging the Iffy signals on the E-trac

[Bullhead23]

Help on digging the 'Iffy' signals on the E-trac

Finally got a chance to get out and do some detecting the last two days. Spent about 12 hours total detecting, toting my 16 month old daughter around in a hiking pack half the time(my back is killing me!). Dug some clad, a lot of junk(mostly nails/iron, aluminum cans, and bottle caps), a complete mini hubley TEX cap gun, and two wheats(1920D, 1910-my two oldest so far). I was disappointed with the time put in that I didn't find more keepers and even more disappointed with the depth I was finding coins at(3-4 inch max). Yesterday I was in Auto +3 so I switched over to manual for the first time today and ran it steadily at 24 in hopes of scoring some deep silver;no such luck. So my question really is how do you distinguish iron from a coin? I tried 2 tone ferrous but didnt like it and switched back over to multi-conduct. I always hear that you should go more by a repeatable sound than numbers so I would dig a sweet high pitch and it always turned out to be deep iron . So I stop going by just the high pitch and dig repeatable signals(numbers) as well with nothing over 23 ferrous. This has helped me avoid the iron but now targets are few and far between and any good target I get is shallow clad. Am I missing targets by not digging anything over 23 FE(probably)? It just seems to me you go on any youtube/metal detecting video out there, you see these guys pulling deep coin targets and never do you see them dig anything over 20FE. Maybe it's just the location and all thats left is shallow clad or maybe I'm just missing out by not digging higher FE. Fellow E-Tracer advice would be much appreciated.

 

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[geneg]

I just recently purchased an Etrac and I too am having slow progress. 2 tone Ferrous just resulted in the detector freaking out and finally just producing a constant high pitch near the ground or not no matter where it was. I have dug a bunch of nails but did find two pennies. I have been busy and have not been out much. So I feel your frustration. Not sure what pattern you are using but I think I am going to load the park pattern I found which hopefully will help. BTW the nails I found where like 10" deep so I know it will go deep, just need to remove the nail noise for now and learn the sounds. I am also going to switch from multi to 4 tone and see if that also helps.

 

[Bullhead23]

I just recently purchased an Etrac and I too am having slow progress. 2 tone Ferrous just resulted in the detector freaking out and finally just producing a constant high pitch near the ground or not no matter where it was. I have dug a bunch of nails but did find two pennies. I have been busy and have not been out much. So I feel your frustration. Not sure what pattern you are using but I think I am going to load the park pattern I found which hopefully will help. BTW the nails I found where like 10" deep so I know it will go deep, just need to remove the nail noise for now and learn the sounds. I am also going to switch from multi to 4 tone and see if that also helps.

I'm using the Andy Sabisch coins pattern. Yeah I'm finding deep nails too which makes me wonder why I'm not finding deep coins. I guess if I'm not digging anything over 23 FE i should just discriminate it out but at the same time I don't want to be missing good targets with too much discrimination. Let me know if that 4 tone gives you better results. Thanks for commenting.

 

[DaveG]

I am new to the E-Trac also, so I have a way to go before I will understand. This detector has more to it than any other detector I have owned. The weather here has been ugly, so I don't have much field time. I have read inAndy Sabisch's book (this book is great) that big, deep iron can read high on the CO scale, but will still read high on the FE scale. I have seen during my few, short hunts that Iron would sound 45 CO, but in the 30's on the FE scale.

 

[Jackalope]

I've mentioned what I believe to be some advantages to 4TF mode. But let's say you are in a very heavy nail infested area. While you'd like to pick out the copper coins amongst the nails it is just too much. So, for those instances (and they do happen), I would suggest something like the pattern below. Basically block out from 18-18 to the lower-right corner.



The DISC area will block most iron - and so with this pattern you are not going to get much of any nail response. That is, the E-Trac will only null (the threshold will disappear and return). Since iron will often wrap the Fe value around to the low Fe values (and High Tone in 4TF) the likely wrap around areas are DISC'd too. You should still get some deep copper coins.

Recall that 4TF produces the Med-Low Tone from 18-30 Fe. So this area is not going to sound anymore unless the target has lower Co values (which are not nails). We are still attempting to keep DISC to a minimum. The High Tone will still sound for most silver half-dollars. However, 1943 war pennies will not be found.

Now, TTF already has the area below 18Fe as a Low Tone. So, the other choice would be to either block out the same area in TTF to silence the nails or just ignore the Low Tone altogether. In other words, TTF is already set-up to ignore most nails by giving them the Low Tone. You only need to DISC out the wrap-around area at the top to kill them off completely (or mostly completely).

I think nails are tough for the beginner. I would rather people DISC it out and have a successful hunt than give up in frustration.

 

[Bullhead23]

I am new to the E-Trac also, so I have a way to go before I will understand. This detector has more to it than any other detector I have owned. The weather here has been ugly, so I don't have much field time. I have read inAndy Sabisch's book (this book is great) that big, deep iron can read high on the CO scale, but will still read high on the FE scale. I have seen during my few, short hunts that Iron would sound 45 CO, but in the 30's on the FE scale.

See I run the Andy Sabisch coin pattern so Fe is blocked out from I believe 29 and up so When I get an iron hit it will jump around anywhere from 01-27 FE. Strangely enough when I switch to all metal it still wont register in the 30's on the FE. I have yet to see a target hit over 29 on FE.

 

[Bullhead23]

I've mentioned what I believe to be some advantages to 4TF mode. But let's say you are in a very heavy nail infested area. While you'd like to pick out the copper coins amongst the nails it is just too much. So, for those instances (and they do happen), I would suggest something like the pattern below. Basically block out from 18-18 to the lower-right corner.

View attachment 789315

The DISC area will block most iron - and so with this pattern you are not going to get much of any nail response. That is, the E-Trac will only null (the threshold will disappear and return). Since iron will often wrap the Fe value around to the low Fe values (and High Tone in 4TF) the likely wrap around areas are DISC'd too. You should still get some deep copper coins.

Recall that 4TF produces the Med-Low Tone from 18-30 Fe. So this area is not going to sound anymore unless the target has lower Co values (which are not nails). We are still attempting to keep DISC to a minimum. The High Tone will still sound for most silver half-dollars. However, 1943 war pennies will not be found.

Now, TTF already has the area below 18Fe as a Low Tone. So, the other choice would be to either block out the same area in TTF to silence the nails or just ignore the Low Tone altogether. In other words, TTF is already set-up to ignore most nails by giving them the Low Tone. You only need to DISC out the wrap-around area at the top to kill them off completely (or mostly completely).

I think nails are tough for the beginner. I would rather people DISC it out and have a successful hunt than give up in frustration.

That's interesting, I'll have to try that pattern out. What are the numbers for the smaller areas that are blacked out? Thanks for taking the time to post all that info.

 

[Jackalope]

When using DISC on the E-Trac you are making compromises as to how many possible targets you are willing to lose in order improve the audio separation/discrimination of non-ferrous from ferrous.

So, for me, the one target type that I want to know is in the ground in non-ferrous. I don't care about ferrous. But there is much non-ferrous trash that occupies the same areas as non-ferrous coins. The ferrous (iron) also covers a broad area.

Below is a picture of several hundred non-ferrous and ferrous junk targets: nails, pull-tabs, bottle tops, wire, foil, lead, nuts, bolts, screws, and assorted pieces of junk.




Here is what these junk targets will look like on the display:



This is an average distribution of junk and where you can expect to have it appear on the screen. You are going to get some of this at the next park you go to. You can't DISC it all out. You have to keep some or lose jewelry and coins - especially along the 12Fe line (which the foil, pull-tabs & bottle tops align along). So you are going to have to dig these targets if you want the rings and coins. They co-exist together.

Here is where the Bottle Caps live:



Here is where the Foil/Slaw lives:



Here is where the Pull-Tabs live:




Since these non-ferrous targets all live within the good non-ferrous zone, you will dig these in your effort to get at those rings, coins, and jewelry targets. Obviously there is no getting around them - they are always going to be plaguing you.

The next post I'll show the DISC pattern that will remove the ferrous and stray junk from your audio report.

 

[Jackalope]

I've cataloged the target position of over 722 desirable targets in neutral soil. The overwhelming majority reside along 12Fe (strays from 08Fe to 14Fe) and from 01Co to 47Co. This is the highest percentage area for good non-ferrous - a repeatable hit here is worth digging (even if it is a pull-tab, foil, or bottle top).

The other location for great non-ferrous targets is the line from 36-01 to 50-01 and extending down to join the 12Fe line. This zone is the silver half-dollar and silver ring zone. You don't want too much DISC in this area either.

However, nails that wrap-around hit along the upper-right too, as if they were silver. Assuming that you are willing to possibly lose a silver in order to shut up those High-Tone nails - then you will need some DISC in the Silver Zone.

All this is just the setup for the Pattern below. It rids the iron and trash audio reports with DISC but leaves (to a certain degree) the good non-ferrous. It is still a compromise but if you are not willing to hear it all then this will keep the machine stable and quiet and yet still give you most all the high value targets.

JUST THE GOOD STUFF PATTERN
The dark-blue squares are the DISC'd areas (no audio report will be given). The colored rectangle-areas are the audio sounds for 4TF.



This is the same pattern but with the colored rectangle-areas showing the audio tones for the TTF mode.



You can compare the JUST THE GOOD STUFF pattern above against Andy's pattern below:



There are similarities but my pattern is going to produce a quieter hunt - though the compromise here is that you aren't going to be alerted to some deeper copper coins. This is not the gospel of patterns - but a place to start. Make adjustments as needed. The less DISC you use the better - so if you can shave off some DISC, then by all means do so.

A quick pixel count would put the Sabisch coin pattern at 1300 DISC'd pixels and mine at 987. But, I would rather that people start with more DISC and learn the E-Trac (with less frustration) and then perhaps wean off the DISC as you go. I'm mostly putting this out as a way to avoid the calliope of sounds and jumping cursors that trash and iron can produce.

 

[Bullhead23]

Awesome Jackalope, so is everything discriminated out in 'just the good stuff' pattern except the grey and pink area?

 

[DeepseekerADS]

The issue I've been dealing with is going in Relic Mode, or any mode accepting coins and jewelry, I get all kinds of numbers, and all kinds of signals on a good target - a dime, a cent, or a nickel. I get the occasional good conductive signal with good tones, and play with that until I get it repeatable, and then dig it. When I go back over the hole, all sounds and numbers period have disappeared. So all those things were from the good target.

That kinda makes this beast a little more difficult to learn. Going strictly in the Minlab coins mode I do not get that.

I've been digging all the targets, got a whole lot of trash in my pouch. If I get any reasonalbly close numbers which are repeatable, I dig.

I thought it might be in my sensitivity settings, was bumping them up from Auto, last few hunts I've gone straight Auto, and still get the same.

Right now I'm setting at about 30 hours on the beast.

 

[Jackalope]

*** so is everything discriminated out in 'just the good stuff' pattern except the grey and pink area? ***

If you are copying the pattern just set DISC areas on the E-Trac to match the dark blue pixels. The pink, blue, and yellowish areas overlaid on top are simply the audio tone zones.

 

[Jackalope]

Deepseeker, are you using TTF or 4TF? You shouldn't be getting anything but a Med-High Tone (4TF) or High Tone (TTF) on most coins. If the VDI numbers are jumping around it is because the coil is "seeing" more than just the coin. A smaller coil will help isolate the non-ferrous target. Even with the 11" DD, if you investigate a possible good target by narrowing your sweep to just 1-2" over top of it, then you can avoid illuminating the nearby iron and help calm down the target ID. It is also necessary to move the coil when isolating the target very slowly and purposefully. That is, move it back and forth but in exactly the same radial. You are trying NOT to introduce new variables such as would occur if your sweep angle is constantly changing. If it is a nail, the nail will respond with such high finickiness that the TID will likely jump a bit no matter.

A non-ferrous target will respond with much greater repeatability when you move the coil evenly and with precise movements. If the coil is moving at different radials and too far afield, then the response will also be more wild, even for a non-ferrous target. So, what I'm saying is, once you go to isolate the target, slow down, be methodical, and work around the suspected target, even with 2" long sweeps you have to be precise along the radial back and forth. If the cursor isn't steady, at least in the Co (vertical), then either the ground is very mineralized and the non-ferrous target is small or deep (a weak signal), or iron flakes abound (from rusted iron - but the result is the same as mineralized soil), or the target is a nail mimicking a non-ferrous target (which is very likely).

Of course, when you aren't sure - that is, the TID is both stable from one angle and unstable from another - just dig it and see. It may just turn out to be a non-ferrous target laying right next to a ferrous target, so both reactions were true.

 

[DeepseekerADS]

Thanks for your response Jackalope. I'm using 4TF, which may be a mistake when first learning the machine.

What confuses me is that I am getting all of these different numbers and tones over just one target. I dig all good sounding signals & numbers I can narrow down - taking a whole lot of time to pinpoint the target. I'm digging nickels, and pull tabs etc, go very slowly, with those 2" sweeps. I dig the target and then sweep again and ALL responses are gone - no other trash, falsing, etc. present. So that means that good target was the one giving me all those other "diversions" as well as the good signal.

I run sensitivity on Auto. Read that a lot of users bumped up to +3 or less - tried that and went back to straight Auto. I do a Noise Cancel at each site, sometimes several times.

I have yet to find a single good target where that target's signal is the only signal I receive.

Until recently, I stuck with Minelab Relic Mode with 4TF. Yesterday I went with Minelab Coins Mode, still 4TF, and only personal preferences modified.

Still a whole lot of falsing going on.

I am not thinking that the beast is defective, just thinking I've a long learning curve in front of me.....

 

[Bart@Big Boys Hobbies]

The only way to REALLY know is to dig them all. Digging them all will teach you experience on what to dig and what to pass on. Experience with time swinging trumps all!

On older places I REALLY am way more open on digging anything deep.

 

[DeepseekerADS]

I do dig them all except the ones that absolutely do not repeat. I think what I will do is a "Master Reset" and use it for a while like that, going back to basics.

 

[cudamark]

I'm using the Andy Sabisch coins pattern. Yeah I'm finding deep nails too which makes me wonder why I'm not finding deep coins. I guess if I'm not digging anything over 23 FE i should just discriminate it out but at the same time I don't want to be missing good targets with too much discrimination. Let me know if that 4 tone gives you better results. Thanks for commenting.

Maybe the area you're hunting doesn't have any deep coins? I recommend new detector owners head down to their local sandy beach and get experience with their new machine. Lot's of targets at a variety of depths will get you familiar with the numbers real fast. I like the multitone option in all metal myself. I have that with my old White's and got used to it. The only time I use a discrimination pattern is in a real junky area where it's just unhuntable without one.

 

[Jason in Enid]

There is NO need for all kinds of crazy patterns. The Andy Sabich pattern is probably the best pattern out there for silver hunting. The more you block out, the fewer coins (and the best, old coins) you will dig. Learn to use your brain as your discriminator.

Here is the problem; rusty iron, especially nails, are great at fooling the E-Trac for those who don't know how to listen to it. Nails can even give GREAT numbers, but the tone gives it away. What is the entire signal like? is it raspy and broken? That's iron. Is it giving good numbers and tones but there is nulling and the spot on the ground where you get the good signal jumping around? That's iron. Do you have a hard "null" with a solid response on one little spot while wiggling the coil slowly around? That's about 50/50 for iron or a coin right next to iron.

Nothing is fool proof, you will still dig some nails and you could still be ignoring coins, but the latter is true any time you aren't digging absolutely everything.

 

[Bullhead23]

Maybe the area you're hunting doesn't have any deep coins? I recommend new detector owners head down to their local sandy beach and get experience with their new machine. Lot's of targets at a variety of depths will get you familiar with the numbers real fast. I like the multitone option in all metal myself. I have that with my old White's and got used to it. The only time I use a discrimination pattern is in a real junky area where it's just unhuntable without one.

It's an old park from the 1870's and was in heavy use since the 1890's so I would just assume there has to be some deep old coins. My concern is how much the landscape has changed and been moved around over the past century. I also like multi-conduct, the only downside for me is learning to disciminate a deep coin from iron. Other than that, I feel pretty comfortable except I pretty much stay clear of the low tones(which I know I'm passing up gold) unless I'm getting a nickel signal.

 

[Bullhead23]

There is NO need for all kinds of crazy patterns. The Andy Sabich pattern is probably the best pattern out there for silver hunting. The more you block out, the fewer coins (and the best, old coins) you will dig. Learn to use your brain as your discriminator.

Here is the problem; rusty iron, especially nails, are great at fooling the E-Trac for those who don't know how to listen to it. Nails can even give GREAT numbers, but the tone gives it away. What is the entire signal like? is it raspy and broken? That's iron. Is it giving good numbers and tones but there is nulling and the spot on the ground where you get the good signal jumping around? That's iron. Do you have a hard "null" with a solid response on one little spot while wiggling the coil slowly around? That's about 50/50 for iron or a coin right next to iron.

Nothing is fool proof, you will still dig some nails and you could still be ignoring coins, but the latter is true any time you aren't digging absolutely everything.

That's good advice like always. I guess I'll just have to listen more closely. It's a lot harder to concentrate though when you have an adventurous 1 year old with you that wants to run off and explore.