Help with treasure shipwrecks from 1502

[Bobadilla]

Hello,

Recently I was doing some deeper research on lost Bobadilla fleet. It was quite famous, the first huge Spanish loss of treasure ships in the New World. The fleet of 31 ships (some historians say 27, some 29....) left Santo Domingo harbor on the 4th of July 1502 and after 40 hours of sailing they were hit by unusually strong hurricane. Most of the ships were lost with the loss of everything on board including human lives. Over 500 men perished, among them Francisco Bobadilla, rebel Francisco Roldan taken to Spain in chains together with his followers and also Indian cacique Guarionex. They were on board of the flagship of this fleet called "El Dorado". The real name of this newly constructed nao of 130 tons was "Santa Maria de la Antigua". Potter gave the name "El Dorado" to this ship in 1975 because of huge amount of gold lost with her, including giant gold nugget of 32 pounds (that some coverted in solid gold table). Harry Rieseberg named this ship "Golden Hinde" in 1962, but the name "El Dorado" prevailed since then.

Now my question:
I found some entries that the following treasure ships were lost in the waters of Hispaniola Island also in 1502 - "La Santa Rosa" with bronze cannons, 1,2 million in gold, 300,000 in silver and small chest of gems, then the ship "El Julio", lost with bronze cannons, 750,000 in gold, 200,000 in rare gems and art objects and finally the ship "El Prestigio", with bronze cannons, 300,000 in gold, 1,2 million in silver and with gold and silver artifacts. But NONE of these ships was part of the ill-fated Bobadilla fleet according to historical documents. In 1502, practically all the ultramar business of Spain was organized through the major Hispaniola harbor, Santo Domingo and the treasures of that year was loaded on board of that fleet. It is highly improbable for me that other three Spanish naos with so much treasure on board were dispatched from here the same year and lost as well, but I might be wrong. That's why I am asking you guys for help - anyone could tell me something more about these three shipwrecks? Thanks in advance!

Best regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)

 

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[Vox veritas]

Hello,

Recently I was doing some deeper research on lost Bobadilla fleet. It was quite famous, the first huge Spanish loss of treasure ships in the New World. The fleet of 31 ships (some historians say 27, some 29....) left Santo Domingo harbor on the 4th of July 1502 and after 40 hours of sailing they were hit by unusually strong hurricane. Most of the ships were lost with the loss of everything on board including human lives. Over 500 men perished, among them Francisco Bobadilla, rebel Francisco Roldan taken to Spain in chains together with his followers and also Indian cacique Guarionex. They were on board of the flagship of this fleet called "El Dorado". The real name of this newly constructed nao of 130 tons was "Santa Maria de la Antigua". Potter gave the name "El Dorado" to this ship in 1975 because of huge amount of gold lost with her, including giant gold nugget of 32 pounds (that some coverted in solid gold table). Harry Rieseberg named this ship "Golden Hinde" in 1962, but the name "El Dorado" prevailed since then.

Now my question:
I found some entries that the following treasure ships were lost in the waters of Hispaniola Island also in 1502 - "La Santa Rosa" with bronze cannons, 1,2 million in gold, 300,000 in silver and small chest of gems, then the ship "El Julio", lost with bronze cannons, 750,000 in gold, 200,000 in rare gems and art objects and finally the ship "El Prestigio", with bronze cannons, 300,000 in gold, 1,2 million in silver and with gold and silver artifacts. But NONE of these ships was part of the ill-fated Bobadilla fleet according to historical documents. In 1502, practically all the ultramar business of Spain was organized through the major Hispaniola harbor, Santo Domingo and the treasures of that year was loaded on board of that fleet. It is highly improbable for me that other three Spanish naos with so much treasure on board were dispatched from here the same year and lost as well, but I might be wrong. That's why I am asking you guys for help - anyone could tell me something more about these three shipwrecks? Thanks in advance!

Best regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)

Hi Lobo,
which is the source of information of the three shipwrecks of 1502?
Cheers VV

 

[FISHEYE]

I know where 1 of them is,have the gps cords and gold bars and silver has been found there along with timbers and cannon.

 

[jeff k]

I know where 1 of them is,have the gps cords and gold bars and silver has been found there along with timbers and cannon.

Would that be the Golden Fleece wreck?

 

[allen_idaho]

I don't think too much of the information on that list is legitimate. I would not depend on it too much as fact.

However, if you can, try to get ahold of this document from the Spanish Archives:

http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/...t?accion=3&txt_id_desc_ud=106393&fromagenda=N

It could possibly tell you exactly what ships were in the fleet under Nicolas De Ovando in 1502. But I haven't gotten a chance to read it so that is just a big MAYBE.

 

[Vox veritas]

On the shipwrecks of 1502 is a strange fact.
In the AGI "existed" the bundle number 3250, section Contratación, which corresponds to the documents of the armada that in 1501 went to the island of Hispaniola with Nicolas de Ovando. Around 1988 an Italian friend of mine saw and took photocopies of this bundle (and said and showed me the photocopies). Some months later I wanted to see this bundle to write an article, but in the AGI said me it was not. Currently still missing.
Mystery!
Cheers VV

 

[Bobadilla]

Hi Jeff,

"Golden Fleece" was one of gthe first shipwrecks in the New World, named by the coins recovered from this wreck with Golden Fleece Order depicted on the reverse site of the coins. They were dated 1501-1502. This wreck, never found again, was supposed to be in the waters of the Bahamas.

Second shipwreck with the name "Golden Fleece" indeed sank in the waters of the actual Dominican Republic. It was ship of English pirate Jack Bannister and sank in July 1686 in the Bay of Samana on the northern coast of the island after the naval battle with two English frigates.
So this wreck of Fisheye cannot be "Golden fleece"....

Regarding documents about lost Bobadilla fleet, the best and the most comprehensive information is no doubt in the book "Shipwrecks in Puerto Rico's History", published in 1989 by Walter Cardona Bonet.

Best regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)

 

[Alexandre]

Regarding documents about lost Bobadilla fleet, the best and the most comprehensive information is no doubt in the book "Shipwrecks in Puerto Rico's History", published in 1989 by Walter Cardona Bonet.

And what do they use as historical references?

 

[Vox veritas]

Hi Jeff,

"Golden Fleece" was one of gthe first shipwrecks in the New World, named by the coins recovered from this wreck with Golden Fleece Order depicted on the reverse site of the coins. They were dated 1501-1502. This wreck, never found again, was supposed to be in the waters of the Bahamas.

Second shipwreck with the name "Golden Fleece" indeed sank in the waters of the actual Dominican Republic. It was ship of English pirate Jack Bannister and sank in July 1686 in the Bay of Samana on the northern coast of the island after the naval battle with two English frigates.
So this wreck of Fisheye cannot be "Golden fleece"....

Regarding documents about lost Bobadilla fleet, the best and the most comprehensive information is no doubt in the book "Shipwrecks in Puerto Rico's History", published in 1989 by Walter Cardona Bonet.

Best regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)

Hi friend Lobo,
wonderful work of Walter (shame that it has not published the second part). I find no reference in Walter Cardona on these three shipwrecks. What is the primary source?
Cheers VV

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello Alexandre,

Primary sources of Walter Cardona were, apart from his personal research in the Archives of Puerto Rico and Seville, the books of Chaunu and Duro, which are based on many years research of original Spanish historical documents by these authors.

Claudio,
The source of these three shipwrecks is one very old map of Hispaniola with a note of these three wrecks and the year of 1502. Nothing more, it is the reason why I have been confused.

Regards,
Lobo

 

[Vox veritas]

Regarding documents about lost Bobadilla fleet, the best and the most comprehensive information is no doubt in the book "Shipwrecks in Puerto Rico's History", published in 1989 by Walter Cardona Bonet.

And what do they use as historical references?

Hi Alex,
I am very fond of Walter Cardona and I know his research in Spain. Very good researcher.
About 1502 fleet there are not many documents, it was not under the Casa de la Contratación. The research is very difficult and as I said, a whole bundle, surely contains important data, has mysteriously disappeared from AGI.
Cheers VV

 

[Vox veritas]

Hello,

Recently I was doing some deeper research on lost Bobadilla fleet. It was quite famous, the first huge Spanish loss of treasure ships in the New World. The fleet of 31 ships (some historians say 27, some 29....) left Santo Domingo harbor on the 4th of July 1502 and after 40 hours of sailing they were hit by unusually strong hurricane. Most of the ships were lost with the loss of everything on board including human lives. Over 500 men perished, among them Francisco Bobadilla, rebel Francisco Roldan taken to Spain in chains together with his followers and also Indian cacique Guarionex. They were on board of the flagship of this fleet called "El Dorado". The real name of this newly constructed nao of 130 tons was "Santa Maria de la Antigua". Potter gave the name "El Dorado" to this ship in 1975 because of huge amount of gold lost with her, including giant gold nugget of 32 pounds (that some coverted in solid gold table). Harry Rieseberg named this ship "Golden Hinde" in 1962, but the name "El Dorado" prevailed since then.

Now my question:
I found some entries that the following treasure ships were lost in the waters of Hispaniola Island also in 1502 - "La Santa Rosa" with bronze cannons, 1,2 million in gold, 300,000 in silver and small chest of gems, then the ship "El Julio", lost with bronze cannons, 750,000 in gold, 200,000 in rare gems and art objects and finally the ship "El Prestigio", with bronze cannons, 300,000 in gold, 1,2 million in silver and with gold and silver artifacts. But NONE of these ships was part of the ill-fated Bobadilla fleet according to historical documents. In 1502, practically all the ultramar business of Spain was organized through the major Hispaniola harbor, Santo Domingo and the treasures of that year was loaded on board of that fleet. It is highly improbable for me that other three Spanish naos with so much treasure on board were dispatched from here the same year and lost as well, but I might be wrong. That's why I am asking you guys for help - anyone could tell me something more about these three shipwrecks? Thanks in advance!

Best regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)

Hi Lobo,
I do not think the old map mentioned these computations. These were added later. Who added them?
Can you explain better?
Cheers VV

 

[Bobadilla]

Hola Claudio,

Additional information came from a letter sent me by my friend-researcher from Florida without mentioning the source, then when I was talking to Robert Marx some months ago he mentioned something about these wrecks as well and finally these shipwrecks with indication of treasure on board appeared on this Forum recently. It would be too much coincidence unless everything would come from the same wrong source. It is the reason why I ask for the help of all of you in this Forum to clear up this matter.

Regards,
Lobo

 

[Bobadilla]

Alexandre,

Do not you happen to have some info about Portuguese slave ships with a cargo of elephant tusks that wrecked around Hispaniola Island in 16th and 17th century? Thanks in advance....

Regards,
Lobo

 

[Vox veritas]

Hola Claudio,

Additional information came from a letter sent me by my friend-researcher from Florida without mentioning the source, then when I was talking to Robert Marx some months ago he mentioned something about these wrecks as well and finally these shipwrecks with indication of treasure on board appeared on this Forum recently. It would be too much coincidence unless everything would come from the same wrong source. It is the reason why I ask for the help of all of you in this Forum to clear up this matter.

Regards,
Lobo

Hi Lobo,
Primary source, primary source. Always the same story. I've heard too many stories of "ghost shipwrecks" which some characters are great specialists in creating them and develop them. Well, you who have translated my book, will have learned that we must work seriously and ....... no ghost shipwrecks.
Cheers VV

 

[Vox veritas]

Alexandre,

Do not you happen to have some info about Portuguese slave ships with a cargo of elephant tusks that wrecked around Hispaniola Island in 16th and 17th century? Thanks in advance....

Regards,
Lobo

Lobo,
in 1609 a French ship wrecked in Jamaica with ivory. Recovered 225 quintales (some 20,000 pounds).
In 1749, a British frigate of slave trade wrecked somewhere in the Caribbean.
VV

 

[Bobadilla]

Gracias Claudio!

 

[Slugrusher]

Hello,

Recently I was doing some deeper research on lost Bobadilla fleet. It was quite famous, the first huge Spanish loss of treasure ships in the New World. The fleet of 31 ships (some historians say 27, some 29....) left Santo Domingo harbor on the 4th of July 1502 and after 40 hours of sailing they were hit by unusually strong hurricane. Most of the ships were lost with the loss of everything on board including human lives. Over 500 men perished, among them Francisco Bobadilla, rebel Francisco Roldan taken to Spain in chains together with his followers and also Indian cacique Guarionex. They were on board of the flagship of this fleet called "El Dorado". The real name of this newly constructed nao of 130 tons was "Santa Maria de la Antigua". Potter gave the name "El Dorado" to this ship in 1975 because of huge amount of gold lost with her, including giant gold nugget of 32 pounds (that some coverted in solid gold table). Harry Rieseberg named this ship "Golden Hinde" in 1962, but the name "El Dorado" prevailed since then.

Now my question:
I found some entries that the following treasure ships were lost in the waters of Hispaniola Island also in 1502 - "La Santa Rosa" with bronze cannons, 1,2 million in gold, 300,000 in silver and small chest of gems, then the ship "El Julio", lost with bronze cannons, 750,000 in gold, 200,000 in rare gems and art objects and finally the ship "El Prestigio", with bronze cannons, 300,000 in gold, 1,2 million in silver and with gold and silver artifacts. But NONE of these ships was part of the ill-fated Bobadilla fleet according to historical documents. In 1502, practically all the ultramar business of Spain was organized through the major Hispaniola harbor, Santo Domingo and the treasures of that year was loaded on board of that fleet. It is highly improbable for me that other three Spanish naos with so much treasure on board were dispatched from here the same year and lost as well, but I might be wrong. That's why I am asking you guys for help - anyone could tell me something more about these three shipwrecks? Thanks in advance!

Best regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)

If I'm not mistaken, and I am often for one reason or another. Deep Blue Marine just signed contracts/permits with the government of the D.R. to search the coast for this fleet. Not a bad deal for 50% stake in recovery.

 

[Bobadilla]

Hi Slugrusher,
Deep Blue Marine signed the contract with DR government about one and half months ago, it is truth. But as I know they are working in different area on the north, not in the area of possible sinking of "El Dorado", though I also know that Bobadilla fleet is one of their possible targets for the future. By the way, this lost fleet is my preferred one......

Regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)

 

[Slugrusher]

Yep, I knew they were recovering "Le Scipion". I know that's taking a lot of their operating funds. I heard they'd be exploring the "straights". It would be a nice find indeed.