hydraulic pin and feather setup

[Mad Machinist]

Wonder if this could make explosives obsolete for the small guy? Cost wise I believe it would be cheaper in the long run considering the licensing, storage, and transportation requirements of explosives.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[Nitric]

Is it working like a jack hammer? or was he just prying the rock?

It looked like he was just prying the rock, but I saw what looked like Hydraulic hoses...Reminds me of the hammers that go on the end of booms or bobcats..

Looked like it worked pretty quick and easy...

added.....

Never mind! I just looked it up... Pretty cool how that works!! Now, to make one out of an old porta power..

 

[kcm]

I had wondered about such a setup many times. Didn't realize it would work so well like that. I kept thinking to have very long rams, each heading in opposite directions; base braces behind while spike penetrates ahead. Or maybe in places where there was nothing to brace to behind, to have a setup that could lock the unit into the sides.

Thanks for posting this MM!!

 

[Mad Machinist]

Did this one kinda backwards. Here's the first part of it.



Drill, then split.

With the general lack of experience left in the mining industry and where we would need to go to rebuild it in the future, I am BIG on mechanization to prevent injury and maintain a decent profit margin. Pkus the equipment could be taken with you to the next gig. Be nice since explosives are a one time use thing.

I was 5'9" and 220 lbs when I was running a jack leg and if it caught it would throw me around like a rag doll. And if it got wild for some odd reason, it would be the crap outta me until I got it shut down. I just don't see the youth of today and a jack leg turning out real well. They would probably let it go and try to run to their "safe place". Might be funny to watch them get their butts kicked because they don't listen to well, but wouldn't do much for those trying to make mining safer.

 

[Nitric]

I never ran a jack leg...But did run a 90 lb jack hammer, sometimes horizontal, which was a nightmare for me, with a tag along compressor...I'm 6 ft and was about 165 at that time...Also ran a big magnetic drill, drilling 1 inch holes in about quarter inch diamond plate, they were flooring over pits, and had 1 inch holes like swiss cheese, for ventilation. I drilled hundreds of plates one summer with thousands of holes.. Your arms get tired, then beyond tired.....I had to put them on steel saw horses since we couldn't let shavings fall in the pits,plus the mag doesn't sticck to the diamond, have to drill from back, so every plate had to be removed, drilled, and put back. About 2 1/2 ft by 4 ft each but the whole floors of the building were covered with these access plates...The mag went out in the drill and the plate spun, pulling the cord out of socket at the exact same time. Luckily!! It happened so fast that if it wouldn't have pulled the plug it probably would have cut my side open, By the time it wound down It still did enough damage, had bruises and hurt like hell....Anyhow, what I'm getting at....We would get big tough guys, that lifted weights, can beat everyone up, a lot of talk, etc.......They didn't last a week, sometimes didn't make it through a day! Us "little twerps" had one crying and quit after a week......Work is hard!!!

I know one thing! If i knew where valuables were in the rock? I'd be there with a sledge and chisel if that's all I had!!

 

[Mad Machinist]

Now, to make one out of an old porta power..

I don't see why it wouldn't work. As long as the cylinder body and the ram are threaded one way or the other. All that would need to be made is an adapter to hold the feathers and the pin could screw directly on to the ram.

You wouldn't need much stroke on the cylinder. I looked at ebay real quick and 6" stroke 25 ton Enerpac rams are going around $200.

 

[Nitric]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. As long as the cylinder body and the ram are threaded one way or the other. All that would need to be made is an adapter to hold the feathers and the pin could screw directly on to the ram.

You wouldn't need much stroke on the cylinder. I looked at ebay real quick and 6" stroke 25 ton Enerpac rams are going around $200.

We use to make our own adapters at times, and thread them on the ends. They are pretty tough!! They even make a pneumatic pump it still pumps hydraulic at the ram, but the pump is run on air. Never had one apart to see how they work, they just do. Could probably make a 12 volt pump work too, I actually have one of those ....in Ohio........But it would probably work for the small guy that didn't want to spend a fortune the stuff can be found at auctions and craigslist, from old body and frame shops, the better ones are rebuildable, just a couple of seals. and could be carried in. Even if you had to take smaller bites on the rock at a time, depending on rock. it would be pretty fast once holes were drilled. If I only had a shop to experiment in.........I'm pretty tool less here since I moved, I have a mig, tig, and plasma, but no power for them yet, and no grinders, saws, etc....All that stuff is still in Ohio...

 

[Mad Machinist]

I actually have the adapter drawn up already but I want you and the others to figure this one out. It is pretty simple if you take a good look at the "factory ones".

What you described for the pump is know as air over hydraulic. All the are is a pneumatic motor coupled to a hydraulic pump. They are very simple but can be a real pain if the seals go bad. A simple electrically driven pump would provide more than enough pressure to power one of these. I do believe that a electric hydraulic pump for a porta power would work also.

And I hear ya on being "tool less". I have a complete machine shop back at my FIL's place in PA. Cost wise it is a toss up whether to load them up and bring them out here or just buy new ones. They are just sitting back there wasting away. Problem is I would need a tractor trailer to bring it all out here and a 40'x80' building to put it all in.

 

[Nitric]

The only Bad that I can think of is....Getting it stuck!! Most of those rams as far as I remember only push one way, if they are to get jammed with any kind of adapter sometimes it's fun trying to get it to back out. Depending on the adapter and how it was being used. So, even letting the pressure off the ram didn't release it at times and there is no way to force it backwards if you were unable to reach it for some reason. The valve would be simple to make, and the pump only needs to push out one line, basically.....I Can see it, having trouble describing it.

But that may never become a problem...It was just a thought of what could go wrong, possibly...


Added..
Never mind!!! Just thought about it......If it were to get stuck in the rock for some reason, the ram could just be unscrewed from the adapter and pulled out to release the whole mess in the above situation...

 

[Mad Machinist]

The only Bad that I can think of is....Getting it stuck!! Most of those rams as far as I remember only push one way, if they are to get jammed with any kind of adapter sometimes it's fun trying to get it to back out. Depending on the adapter and how it was being used. So, even letting the pressure off the ram didn't release it at times and there is no way to force it backwards if you were unable to reach it for some reason. The valve would be simple to make, and the pump only needs to push out one line, basically.....I Can see it, having trouble describing it.

But that may never become a problem...It was just a thought of what could go wrong, possibly...


Added..
Never mind!!! Just thought about it......If it were to get stuck in the rock for some reason, the ram could just be unscrewed from the adapter and pulled out to release the whole mess in the above situation...

Now your thinking. One of the purposes of this. How can I use or modify non-mining equipment to use for mining safe and efficient manner.

 

[kcm]

The only Bad that I can think of is....Getting it stuck!! Most of those rams as far as I remember only push one way, if they are to get jammed with any kind of adapter sometimes it's fun trying to get it to back out. Depending on the adapter and how it was being used. So, even letting the pressure off the ram didn't release it at times and there is no way to force it backwards if you were unable to reach it for some reason. The valve would be simple to make, and the pump only needs to push out one line, basically.....I Can see it, having trouble describing it.

But that may never become a problem...It was just a thought of what could go wrong, possibly...


Added..
Never mind!!! Just thought about it......If it were to get stuck in the rock for some reason, the ram could just be unscrewed from the adapter and pulled out to release the whole mess in the above situation...

Hmm...the VAST majority of hydraulic cylinders I know of are double-acting cylinders - they work in both directions. That said, they also have more power in one direction than the other due to the space occupied by the cylinder rod. Even if using a single-acting cylinder (which would be insane for this type of operation), the best way to "un-stick" such a device would be through the use of a hydraulically powered vibratory unit. Wouldn't even be a bad idea to have the vibratory unit running while pushing the rod into the rock. This would break out the rock much faster and with less force.

 

[Nitric]

Hmm...the VAST majority of hydraulic cylinders I know of are double-acting cylinders - they work in both directions. That said, they also have more power in one direction than the other due to the space occupied by the cylinder rod. Even if using a single-acting cylinder (which would be insane for this type of operation), the best way to "un-stick" such a device would be through the use of a hydraulically powered vibratory unit. Wouldn't even be a bad idea to have the vibratory unit running while pushing the rod into the rock. This would break out the rock much faster and with less force.

No...(about most rams you have seen being double-action).....A jack,cherry picker(engine hoist),hand operated bearing press, portable road signs that raise with a ram. And many more......You've seen them! It's just the weight, or spring is returning them.

I've seen set ups where one way(?) rams are facing each other, the force from one pushes the other in. But I have no clue why that was done. and the valving and timing would have to be dead on. To think about it now? It might have been for the reason you mentioned above, to have the same power in both directions on the unit.

Some of the porta power type rams like mentioned above, I believe have spring returns (inside).....I may be wrong, And I'm not sure why I think that! I've also even seen Electric, screw type rams, looks like a hydraulic in appearance, but actually has gears and a ...ummm.....car starter(?) type motor in them! But I really doubt one of those would hold up to this...Every one I dealt with was a major headache!! Something always going wrong, especially in the applications I saw them used in....Road line spraying trucks is an example of where some of these are used.....wiring nightmares!!!!! We had to straighten and rebuild a couple of those. One was side swiped by a tractor trailer and what a nightmare of wire and hydraulics, that operates those spray bar arms, sensors, and the rest of the vehicle. OK.....I'm blabbing way way off course again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[kcm]

Yes, you're right. I wasn't even classifying hydraulic jacks in there. My oversight!!

So, when it comes to hydraulically powered equipment, THEN the vast majority of cylinders I've seen have been double acting.

 

[Nitric]

Yes, you're right. I wasn't even classifying hydraulic jacks in there. My oversight!!

So, when it comes to hydraulically powered equipment, THEN the vast majority of cylinders I've seen have been double acting.

I was trying to think...I think one of the scissor lifts I had were one way. I can't remember......Oh, Hell it doesn't matter!! I'm just that bored I guess!

I think the same type of set up could be made,without the ram completely, using the wedges and something through the center, then after tightened in the hole be smacked with a sledge,Or shortened sledge(handle cut short) to expand and blow chunk out of rock...That might work too but would be really basic!

 

[Mad Machinist]

I was trying to think...I think one of the scissor lifts I had were one way. I can't remember......Oh, Hell it doesn't matter!! I'm just that bored I guess! I think the same type of set up could be made,without the ram completely, using the wedges and something through the center, then after tightened in the hole be smacked with a sledge,Or shortened sledge(handle cut short) to expand and blow chunk out of rock...That might work too but would be really basic!

You mean like this?

 

[Mad Machinist]

Hmm...the VAST majority of hydraulic cylinders I know of are double-acting cylinders - they work in both directions. That said, they also have more power in one direction than the other due to the space occupied by the cylinder rod. Even if using a single-acting cylinder (which would be insane for this type of operation), the best way to "un-stick" such a device would be through the use of a hydraulically powered vibratory unit. Wouldn't even be a bad idea to have the vibratory unit running while pushing the rod into the rock. This would break out the rock much faster and with less force.

I believe a single acting cylinder would work fine. In order to understand why this would work, we have to look at strength of materials.

Compression and Tension Strength of some common Materials

Granite in compression, like how you would stack up granite blocks to build a pyramid, is extremely strong. Almost 10 tons per square inch to crush it. BUT if you drill a hole in the granite and place a wedge and feathers in it, you now place the granite in tension. In other words you are trying to spread the granite instead of compressing it. With that type of force, granite only needs 700 pounds per square inch to fracture it. That is why this guy is able to split this rather large piece of granite with a tiny hammer, at least mining wise anyhow.



Drill a series of holes and take small bites and I think it would be fine.

 

[Nitric]

I believe a single acting cylinder would work fine. In order to understand why this would work, we have to look at strength of materials.

Compression and Tension Strength of some common Materials

Granite in compression, like how you would stack up granite blocks to build a pyramid, is extremely strong. Almost 10 tons per square inch to crush it. BUT if you drill a hole in the granite and place a wedge and feathers in it, you now place the granite in tension. In other words you are trying to spread the granite instead of compressing it. With that type of force, granite only needs 700 pounds per square inch to fracture it. That is why this guy is able to split this rather large piece of granite with a tiny hammer, at least mining wise anyhow.



Drill a series of holes and take small bites and I think it would be fine.

That is cool!! I've never seen that done before! You can hear it cracking!! ........


It's also like......Pounding on things ...On basement or garage floors!! You don't see it, But your sometimes putting cracks through the concrete... Most never causes any problems though unless done over and over.....

 

[Mad Machinist]

Isn't being a miner fun? Now on top of everything else, you have to use advanced engineering techniques too.

 

[Nitric]

Isn't being a miner fun? Now on top of everything else, you have to use advanced engineering techniques too.

I'd like to learn this stuff to build a house or at least small out buildings....Our dream (wife and I) was to have land since we were kids(teens)...We ended up with a small chunk of what we call paradise, Took everything we had at the time....But, it's loaded with sandstone type rock and cliffs caves....Long story short...Eventually I'd like to take the rock and build walk ways,walls, fountains,etc...and small out buildings. Don't know if we will ever get that far..But......The same ideas and techniques would work there too...

I would love to mine! Eventually maybe I'll get there too!!

 

[SaltwaterServr]

I think that this technique wouldn't necessarily be better than using explosives, if you're licensed for it. The density of holes they show in that rock face is well beyond what you'd need for a typical double diamond drill pattern on the working face. Generally speaking, it looks like the drilling time is extensively beyond what I expect for blasting operations. When it comes to loading the holes and wiring the shot, I think you'd come out way ahead on time using explosives as well. That's just for drilling.

The actual breaking of the rock is going to eat a crap load of time with the hydraulic feathering.

Then there's the expenses to consider. How much does that rig cost? If you're doing 3-5x the number of holes, then expect that much more maintenance on your equipment. If you're in a water deprived area like I am, it's all that extra water for the drill rig that has to be hauled to the site. The road will get that much more maintenance as well.

Now if you're in an area close to residences or you've got a very dicey patch of gangue to work through, this might be the only way to go.

I don't know. It's a novel technique but it might be trying to invent the wheel.