I found this picture amazing

[spartacus53]

I was reading a post today about a deformed bullet when I remembered seeing seeing one from the Civil War in a museum. Although not the same, this picture was taken from a bullet found at Spotsylvania Courthouse.. The fighting had to be very heavy for two bullets to collide. I wonder who they were actually aiming at, I doubt it was one another.. There was also a 22" thick tree cut in that battle from the small arms fire alone.

http://sgtriker.com/images/2bullets.jpg

 

[BloodyBelle]

That is soooo cool! I'd love to have a cast of that!

 

[Old Town]

I tend to think the shooters were indeed shooting at each other. Rifle fire unless deflected by brush or something is very straight. Two guys 200 yards apart and drawing a bead on each other is not only believable but highly likely. What's rare is for them to both hit the correct spot within the same milisecond.

That is a fantastic bullet find.

OT

 

[rockhound]

That is pretty remarkable considering most of the muskets used in the civil war were not very accurate. Most were 70 caliber which would shoot either a patched ball,mini ball rowhat they referred to as grape shot. They were 70 caliber for a reason, ifthey loaded grape shot in the barrel, they would have the equivalent of todays 20 gauge shotgun. This made for far better weapon at close range. If the two mini balls rifles were actually fired at each, it is an astronomical coincidence that they hit each other in flight. The odds of that happening more than once is at the outer limit at which your calculator can add. Great find. rockhound

 

[DigginThePast]

Very cool find for the gentleman.

What the odds may be?

 

[spartacus53]

Very cool find for the gentleman.

What the odds may be?

I think it would be a google to 1 on a good day Even then, I doubt I would like to be on the business end of that 58 cal. shot..

 

[Old Town]

That is pretty remarkable considering most of the muskets used in the civil war were not very accurate. Most were 70 caliber which would shoot either a patched ball,mini ball rowhat they referred to as grape shot. They were 70 caliber for a reason, ifthey loaded grape shot in the barrel, they would have the equivalent of todays 20 gauge shotgun. This made for far better weapon at close range. If the two mini balls rifles were actually fired at each, it is an astronomical coincidence that they hit each other in flight. The odds of that happening more than once is at the outer limit at which your calculator can add. Great find. rockhound

Actually, Rockhound, what made the Civil War different from earlier wars was the advance in weaponry. Most guns on both sides were in fact rifled and not smoothbores. The most common caliber was .58 and this a Minie design that was meant strictly for rifled barrels. A good CW rifle could easily stay on a man-size target at 400 yards. This means easy head shot accuracy at 100 yards. CW rifle fire is what ended the mass charge. (read about Pickett's Charge) Same way machine guns again changed war in WW1.

Rifled artillery was the other great advance. Instead of area bombardment, good gunners could pick a spot 2000 yards out and strike small houses used for cover by the enemy. That war was the start of real accuracy and wholesale death.

OT

 

[dpitt8]

cool pic

 

[rockhound]

When the war started,everyone grabbed whatever rifle they had and used to hunt with.Most were .70 caliber,although some even used squirrel rifles like .36 caliber.Some were .45 caliber. There was no standard at the start of the war..58 calibers came later on in the war. As the war progressed more inventive rifles were built.Yes, they started out as smooth bores then before the war ended they were using Sharpe's rifles with rifling and far better accuracy. If you watched top shot a while back you could get a feel for the accuracy of those rifles. They were shooting at a target 100 yards away with a Kentucky long rifle,which has a longer barrel and is more accurate than the rifles they were using. These people were some of the best marksmen in the country,not your everyday soldier back in the civil war. And they were using a rest,not shooting off handed, and running, and certainly not being shot at from the other side. Still they had a hard time hitting a pie plate sized target at 100 yards. Most took 3 or 4 shots to hit it.Most mini balls found are .58 because the 70 caliber rifles mainly used round balls with a patch.They also used grape shot in the .58's.The Sharpe's were the rifles used at the end of the war, and they also invented gatlin guns when cartridges were developed for the Sharpe's rifles.Pistol,however remained cap and ball for a longer period of time. Most pistols were .44 caliber.The replica I have now is rifled,but most civil war models weren't.The only accurate rifles used back then were the French made sniper rifles, before the Sharpe's,of which few existed. rockhound

 

[spartacus53]

I'd have to agree with you rockhound as far as the accuracy of even the best weapons for that time period, they sucked. You want to know why you'll be finding Civil War bullets for years to come? It's not that they were bad shots, the guns were so inaccurate that it took an average of a mans weight in shot to drop each individual. That is a ton of flying lead during a battle.. There is no better example than the stump of the 22" tree near this site. It was cut down by small arms fire intended for a human target, either that, or both sides decided to shoot it down to get a better view

 

[Old Town]

Both of you boys are wrong. What takes down most trees in modern warfare is artillery in addition to small arms. Look at old pictures of the islands in the South Pacific after a US invasion. Same thing in Europe. Talk to a vet. Both my dad and his dad were on Guadalcanal and other islands over there. It was the artillery that cuts down the trees and bushes. Same in the Civil War with the advent of newer field pieces. My father was a Seabee who always joked with the gunners that they should finish the job they started before he headed out with a bulldozer. He was referring to the trees being blasted half to shreds.

The accuracy of the Springfield .58, the Harper's Ferry rifled .69, and the British .577 Enfield was outstanding. All three of these guns were rifled and fired Minie designed conical bullets. All of these guns could stay under 4 inches at 100 yards. Most would do better. I shoot an Enfield replica in .58 caliber and have not trouble shooting 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards. I can stay on a pie plate (9") at 200 yards off a bench. Good shooters can easily stay on a man shape at 400 yards. Any good shooter can do this. My results are not unusual.

The Union Army never issued a smoothbore in the Civil War. The standard issue weapon was the .58 caliber Springfield. This gun came out in the 1850s and was a single shot muzzleloader taking a hollow base minie ball (bullet). The Confederates issued any rifle they could find and used the Springfield, the Harpers' Ferry .69 caliber rifle with a minie ball, and the imported Enfield gun from England when the blockade could be defeated. The French also contributed rifles to the South.

Most cavalry units on both sides preferred the new Henry lever gun in .44 rimfire or the Spencer repeating lever gun with separate thumb cocking. This was a .52 caliber, 7 shot repeater. Loading a muzzleloading rifle from the back of a horse was difficult at best. These early repeaters were made for cavalry soldiers. The Sharps was a breech-loading single shot. Not a repeater. The Gatling gun was a mechanical machine gun firing cartridges. Contrary to what many think, it had almost no impact on the Civil War. It came late and it was not that great a weapon. Nothing like the later gas and recoil operated Maxim and Browning machine guns of WW1.

All cap and ball revolvers of the time and of US design, (Remington, Colt) were rifled. The Confederates did copy the Northern Colt design along with the Remington. If they cut corners it was to reduce the rifling from 6 grooves to 4. They never put out smoothbore cap and ball revolvers. I happen to know this for having collected Colt 1851s and 1860s along with 1st and 2nd generation Colt Single Action Army revolvers for years. I've got a bunch of these guns and have handled dozens of others. All are rifled.

I do not expect you to believe me on any of this information. So you should look up Civil War weapons for yourself. Or hopefully some other gun nut like me will chime in. I shoot many modern weapons along with blackpowder revolvers, both replicas and original Colt 1860s. I also reload all my own ammunition for both handguns and rifles. I also have several blackpowder rifles including an Enfield, a Kentucky long rifle and a Hawkins replica. Those latter guns shoot patched balls out of rifled barrels. They cannot compete at 200 yards and beyond with the Springfield or Enfield with it's Minie bullet of far better sectional density and ballistic coefficient.

You really should not take TV shows as hard fact on gun related subjects. TV is about selling products, not accuracy with regards to its programing. That shooting show was not very good. I caught some of it and had to quit after they repeatedly gave out bad information. Plus the shooters were mostly good-looking actors they'd taught to shoot in a cram course. In short, it was a farce. A reality show based on guns but about personalities. Pure crap.

The End

Old Town

 

[spartacus53]

Well we can debate the accuracy issue until the cows come home...

As far as the Gatling gun was concerned, the Union army didn't approve of them, but the navy did.. The navy used them on several vessels as well as protecting bridgeheads.

Gatling was also found to be a member of the secret Copperhead organizations that were threatening to take over the border and north central states for the Confederacy, he was also willing to sell the gun to the confederacy.

 

[rockhound]

Glad to hear you are an avid shooter, like myself. I have been hunting,shooting,reloading and everything in betwen since I was 10. My uncle was a gunsmith, and held the world record for 1000 meter-5 shot group for years.All my family has been and still is into hunting and shooting. I own several replicas,pistols and reifles of early American vintage. I have seen hundreds of civil war weapons, as my best freind is not only a collector,but also owns a gun shop. I have seen almost every caliber rifle and pistol made for black powder. I have even shot some of them. When the James gang, and the Younger gang were in the civil war, they rode upon a infantry of union soldiers. While the James's and Youngers were cavalry,they were using .44 navy revolvers, and killed off an entire union infantry of soldiers. I have heard that it was as many as 100. I carry a swab to remove powder residue from my barrel after I shoot. The first shot is pretty accurate, but as more shots are fired, and the residue builds up,the more inaccurrate they become. The soldiers didn't swab their barrels, and probably didn't clean them every day even.After about ten shots through a muzzle loader with black powder,you would be lucky to hit an elephant at 100 yards offhand. rockhound

 

[spartacus53]

After about ten shots through a muzzle loader with black powder,you would be lucky to hit an elephant at 100 yards offhand. rockhound

Those were the same famous last words of Gen John Sedgwick, but he never finished the word distan..

 

[Old Town]

Correct, rockhound. But a maintained BP rifle firing conical minie type bullets is a very capable weapon on men out to a half mile.

The reason so many shots are required to hit a fellow during war is because of panic among the troops. Only a small percentage of shots are aimed at all. This is true of all wars at all times. The missing was not because of inaccurate Enfields and Springfields, it was poor marksmanship by the average man who was scared.

Elite sniper units in the CW using rudimentary telescopic sights and Pope barreled BP rifles regularly hit men and horse at 1000 yards.

I've participated in many BP rifle shoots out to 500 yards and have witnessed good riflemen using the original guns making groups of 8-10" at a full 500 yards off a bench. Few casual shooters today can do this with a scoped centerfire rifle from a sandbagged rest. The boys with the BP guns were even using iron sights - no telescopes.

Civil War rifles were very accurate. Some have even suggested the degree of accuracy was better in the CW than in the Vietnam fight. Not because the rifles were better but because there was more aimed fire. (as bad as it was)

Old Town