Iberian olive jars, help wanted

[Alexandre]

We are building a database of shipwrecks where Iberian olive jars have been found. We are aware of Googin's and Marken's previous works and we would like to go on from there.

Any suggestion for the below shipwrecks (all Iberian or suspected to be Iberian) would be very helpful.

Corpo Santo
Ria de Aveiro A
Cais do Sodré
Navio das telhas
Ria de Aveiro B
Ria de Aveiro C
Ria de Aveiro F
Molasses Reef Shipwreck
ANG-004 - Sto. António ?
Highborn Cay Shipwreck
Studland Bay
Etoile Wreck
Bahia Mujeres Shipwreck - La Nicolasa ?
Playa Damas Shipwreck
Bom Jesus
NAC-003
NAC-005
Angra B
Basque galleon 1
Basque galleon 2
Basque galleon 3
Caio Nuevo Shipwreck
Francisco Padre
Galera
Mystery Wreck of MAREX
Ribadeo
Rio Boco
Saona Site 1
Saona Site 2
Saona Site 3
Six Shilling Cays
S. João
Espiritu Santo
S. Bento
San Esteban
Santa Maria de Yciar
La Condesa
San Salvador
Emanuel Point Shipwreck
Pensacola Bay 2 Shipwreck
ANG-003
IDM-001
IDM-002 - Fort San Sebastian Wreck
IDM-006
IDM-012
IDM-013
IDM-014
Spanish Wreck
San Juan
Ines de Soto Shipwreck
Saint John's Bahamas Shipwreck - Sta. Clara (1564) ?
San Felipe
Arade 1
Baleal 1
Cochin Shipwreck
San Cayetano
West Turtle Shoal
Barra Sul
Western Ledge Reef Shipwreck (IMHA 3) - Sta. Lucia ?
Santiago
El Gran Grifon
Ruthland Shipwreck
Santa Maria de la Rosa
Tobermory Ship
Trinidad Valencera
Nuestra Señora del Rosario
Stº António
Sto. Alberto
Capitana de Ivella
Punta Restelos
San Pedro
Angra D
Arade 2
Santa Margarita
Galeão of Duarte Guerra
Nossa Senhora dos Mártires
S. Salvador
IDM-003 - N.S. Consolação ?
Espiritu Santo
Fuxa Shipwreck
Madre de Deus
Ponta do Altar B
Wan-Li Shipwreck
Nossa Senhora da Luz
Green Cabin Shipwreck (San Martin)
CAD-001 - N.S. Pópulo ?
San Antonio
Dry Tortugas Shipwreck
IDM-017 - Santa Teresa ?
MOG-003 - São Joseph ?
Nuestra Señora de Atocha
Nuestra Señora del Rosario
S. João Baptista
Santa Margarita
Shot Wreck
S. Bartolomeu
Sta. Helena
Sta. Ana Maria
S. Gonçalo
Sto. Inácio de Loyola
Sta. Catarina de Ribamar
Nuestra Señora de la Concepción
Urca La Viga
Nuestra Señora de la Concepción
S. Nicolau
Santa Maria Madre de Deus
N.ª S.ª da Atalaia do Pinheiro
Santíssimo Sacramento
N.ª S.ª do Rosário
AGO-063 - S. Francisco
IDM-004
IDM-005
IDM-007
IDM-008
IDM-018
MOG-002
Stonewall Shipwreck
Sunchi Shipwreck
S. Paulo
Jesús M.ª de la Limpia Concepción
Nuestra Señora de las Maravillas
Santíssimo Sacramento B
Los Lingotes
N.ª S.ª dos Milagres
Praia dos Ingleses
Nuestra Señora del Pilar
Sto. António de Taná

 

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[Dell Winders]

Where is Saint John's, Bahamas shipwreck? Dell

 

[maipenrai]

Are you making a list of all the ship wrecks that will be claimed by Spain?

 

[Alexandre]

Where is Saint John's, Bahamas shipwreck? Dell

this one:


http://www.melfisher.org/stjohn.htm

 

[ivan salis]

oh so now any wreck with a spanish type olive jar upon it is now a "spanish wreck" ? --good thing that spain never sold any jars of spanish olives to anyone esle . --olive's (as well as olive oil and wine) were a sea going staple foods on many vessels along with pickled and salted meat and hard tack type breads.

thats almost as bad as saying any vessel where spanish coins are found must be spanish * -- spanish coins were the common money of the day on vessels of many differant countries since it was accepted by everyone at the time as "legal tender' money --heck until the 1830's it was concidered 'legal tender cash" in the USA until its use was finally outlawed as "american money" -- and it had to be treated as "foreign money"

 

[Alexandre]

oh so now any wreck with a spanish type olive jar upon it is now a "spanish wreck" ? --good thing that spain never sold any jars of spanish olives to anyone esle . --olive's (as well as olive oil and wine) were a sea going staple foods on many vessels along with pickled and salted meat and hard tack type breads.

I said "all Iberian or suspected to be Iberian". If you have examples of ships with these kind of jars, even if they are not Iberian, please provide examples.

 

[Mackaydon]

We found Spanish colonial jars and majolica on the 'Jesús M.ª de la Limpia Concepción' (1654)
Don........

 

[ivan salis]

i personally know of several local british lumber trade era wrecks sites that had spanish type olive jars upon them *( wreckage from them washes ashore on the beaches now and then in amelia island area ) all of the wreck sites are british trade vessels however * that dealt with what at the time was "spanish florida" --in the 1800 thru 1816 era --there are over 24 known british lumber trade vessels recorded as being sunk on the bar of / or / on the island of amelia island , florida * during that time frame alone --

after the american embargo closed america' s ports due to the war between the british and the french --the english needed a new supplier of tall pine trees for ships mast and other wood products and turpentine and other wood products for its sea going fleets --and spanish florida was "open" for bussiness -- the english brought much needed 'finished goods , pottery and hosehold items" and took back raw lumber and other needed wood products , pitch, tar and turpentine and such.

being that they docked in what was a "spanish port " they of course picked up "spanish food stuffs " like olives for food for their return trip to england --thus this is how spanish olive jugs came to be on on a english shipwreck

some of the british vessels in question are listed in -- Steven D. Singer -- shipwrecks of florida

 

[Alexandre]

Cool, many thanks. I will follow up on both of you later on. For the moment, we are trying to get a gist of what is where.

 

[ScubaFinder]

If you have examples of ships with these kind of jars, even if they are not Iberian, please provide examples.

I've haven't seen any..... :-) You might check with Francis Soto in the Oficina National Patrimonio Cultura Subaquatico in the Dominican Republic. Several new wrecks found there that you may not know about yet.

Jason

 

[Oceanscience]

If you add the date and region where the shipwreck sank, it would be easier, since many ships had the same name over the centuries.

Below are 2 Olive Jar pictures. One from Cape Verde and the other one from Salvador Bahia, Brazil.

 

[Oceanscience]

You mention the Santo Antonio De Tanna.
There is a shipwreck that has a close relation to the Santo Antonio, the SANTA ECOLASTICA even if they sank half a wold apart.
During the 14 years that the Fort Jesus in Mombassa, was under siege, the king sent many ships with supplies and relief. The Santo Antonio was the only one to reach the fort.
Bahia also receiver orders from the king to send a ship.
There was one ship nearly ready, in the shipyard, but the day before it was launched, it burned.
Another ship, the SANTA ECOLASTICA was readied for the long trip to Mombassa.
She left the port of San Salvador, but, only a few miles out, she capsized and sank. 70 people died.

The survivors told a strange tale about a huge sperm whale that had rammed and capsized the ship.

Bad mouths claimed the ship was sunk on purpose to hide the fact that the treasure shipped on board was robbed.

Did the shipwreck help clarifying any of these claims?

Do you want the whole story?

Below are some pictures from the SANTA ECOLASTICA.

The round flint stones are identical to the ones found on the Santo Antonio de Tanna

Look at the divers hands. Digging on shipwrecks is hard work.

As wreck sites go, this is one of the most beautiful ones.

The most beautiful rapier I ever found. I wonder if it belonged to the captain?

 

[Alexandre]

"The most beautiful rapier I ever found. I wonder if it belonged to the captain?"

Oh cripes...here we go.

belonged to Spain is how it will be interpreted to some in here

Trez... the Santa Escolástica was a Portuguese ship... I pretty much doubt it would belong to Spain...

Although you won't find it here, almost all Portuguese Navy ships from 1640 til 1910 can be checked here:

http://3decks.pbworks.com/f/Catalogo+dos+navios+brigantinos+(1640-1910)+-+Esparteiro.pdf

You mention the Santo Antonio De Tanna.
There is a shipwreck that has a close relation to the Santo Antonio, the SANTA ECOLASTICA even if they sank half a wold apart.
During the 14 years that the Fort Jesus in Mombassa, was under siege, the king sent many ships with supplies and relief. The Santo Antonio was the only one to reach the fort.
Bahia also receiver orders from the king to send a ship.
There was one ship nearly ready, in the shipyard, but the day before it was launched, it burned.
Another ship, the SANTA ECOLASTICA was readied for the long trip to Mombassa.

Her captain, João da Maia da Gama was a veteran of the India wars (he fought at Surrate and Ormuz, in Iran) and had been at the siege of Mombassa in 1698, when the fortress fell, under the siege of Omanis (aided by the Dutch and the English) and the St. Antonio de Tanna was sunk. He returned to Brazil and took command of the the frigate Nossa Senhora do Bom Sucesso aka Sereia - the ship that burned while stopping at Bahia, not while in the shipyard.

With his own money, he then armed and fitted the frigate Santa Escolástica, which as you well say, was sunk within moments of setting sail - it most probably struck the Barra sandbar.

Bad mouths claimed the ship was sunk on purpose to hide the fact that the treasure shipped on board was robbed.

I pretty much doubt that a ship going to a war in Kenya would be carrying any treasure...

Look at the divers hands. Digging on shipwrecks is hard work.

As wreck sites go, this is one of the most beautiful ones.

Very nice plan, looks a very promising site. I heard that it has been heavily looted and salvaged by the Albanese's SALVANAV.

As for the hands, been there, done that. Days and days of submersion inside a wetsuit and in warm, salty water will cause you white, milky, running sores that simply wont go away. Dreadful stuff.

 

[Trez]

Just curious Alexandre,
Was there ever anything found on that vessel that would positively identify if as being the Santa Escolastica ? any physical evidence as in a Ship's Bell...Gold or Silver bar with owners identification markings and listed on the manifest?
Thanks...

Trez

 

[Alexandre]

Just curious Alexandre,
Was there ever anything found on that vessel that would positively identify if as being the Santa Escolastica ? any physical evidence as in a Ship's Bell...Gold or Silver bar with owners identification markings and listed on the manifest?
Thanks...

Trez

As far as I know, Trez, there was never a relilable archaeological report (as per my standards) produced on this wreck. So, we have to take SALVANAV and other salvors word for it...

Again, I pretty much doubt that a ship like this would have any treasure aboard, exception being made to personal possessions. On the same note, silver was not being mined in Brazil (although, it would freely flow there, smuggled down the Spanish possessions in South America into Brazil and from there into Europe and Asia) and gold would only start to be really mined in the first decade of the 18th century, well after this shipwreck.

 

[Trez]

Just curious Alexandre,
Was there ever anything found on that vessel that would positively identify if as being the Santa Escolastica ? any physical evidence as in a Ship's Bell...Gold or Silver bar with owners identification markings and listed on the manifest?
Thanks...

Trez

As far as I know, Trez, there was never a relilable archaeological report (as per my standards) produced on this wreck. So, we have to take SALVANAV and other salvors word for it...

Again, I pretty much doubt that a ship like this would have any treasure aboard, exception being made to personal possessions. On the same note, silver was not being mined in Brazil (although, it would freely flow there, smuggled down the Spanish possessions in South America into Brazil and from there into Europe and Asia) and gold would only start to be really mined in the first decade of the 18th century, well after this shipwreck.

Thanks...

 

[Oceanscience]

Just curious Alexandre,
Was there ever anything found on that vessel that would positively identify if as being the Santa Escolastica ? any physical evidence as in a Ship's Bell...Gold or Silver bar with owners identification markings and listed on the manifest?
Thanks...

Trez

Here is the ship's bell of the SANTA ECOLASTICA. The bell is made out of silver.

 

[Oceanscience]

Just curious Alexandre,
Was there ever anything found on that vessel that would positively identify if as being the Santa Escolastica ? any physical evidence as in a Ship's Bell...Gold or Silver bar with owners identification markings and listed on the manifest?
Thanks...

Trez

As far as I know, Trez, there was never a relilable archaeological report (as per my standards) produced on this wreck. So, we have to take SALVANAV and other salvors word for it...

Again, I pretty much doubt that a ship like this would have any treasure aboard, exception being made to personal possessions. On the same note, silver was not being mined in Brazil (although, it would freely flow there, smuggled down the Spanish possessions in South America into Brazil and from there into Europe and Asia) and gold would only start to be really mined in the first decade of the 18th century, well after this shipwreck.

I am telling the story as I found it in the local archives. By memory, because at that time, the only way to copy was by handwriting.
There were ample comments about wrongdoing about the ship's sinking. However, you are right, it was certainly not a treasure ship, although it some cash.
The wrongdoing could be more against the treasury, because there was definitely something wrong, that not even hundreds of years on the bottom of the ocean could delete.
You are right about the silver mining, but the first clue about the identity of the shipwreck came from a silver coin dated 1698, minted in the local mint that only just started minting coins.

As you can see in the picture, the coins are of a varied mix, cobs from Mexico, Lima and other.

The story about the sperm whale is from the archives. What a coincidence, that the skeleton of a huge sperm whale lies near the wreck site!!!!!!

I would strongly recommend that you take a personal look at the wreck site. The time Salvanave spent on site is not more that maybe 200 diving hours. The site is in 80feet of water.

 

[Oceanscience]

Alexandre's quote:
"Her captain, João da Maia da Gama was a veteran of the India wars (he fought at Surrate and Ormuz, in Iran) and had been at the siege of Mombassa in 1698, when the fortress fell, under the siege of Omanis (aided by the Dutch and the English) and the St. Antonio de Tanna was sunk. He returned to Brazil and took command of the the frigate Nossa Senhora do Bom Sucesso aka Sereia - the ship that burned while stopping at Bahia, not while in the shipyard.

With his own money, he then armed and fitted the frigate Santa Escolástica, which as you well say, was sunk within moments of setting sail - it most probably struck the Barra sandbar."

Do you have any further information about the armament of the Santa Ecolastica? I drew the cannon on the site sketch, as they were. Cannon, swivel guns and lombards.
What are lombards doing on a ship of 1700?

Do you have any reference to that?

 

[Oceanscience]

Ah, yes, I have to admit that the spirit of the captain is my own invention. No mention of it in the archives.
The spirit of the captain turned up after I found what I believe to be the captains bones, under one of the cannon. The person who was pinned below the cannon was wearing a tunic with large silver buttons, obviously somebody important.

Anyway, the spirit turned up every time one wanted to take a picture. He always wanted to be the center of attraction. Since it's spines are very poisonous, inflicting extreme pain to whoever touches him, it really looked as if he wanted to protect something.