**ICE**

[Carl-NC]

Look at it from my perspective: once upon a time someone dug a very deep hole on OI that started to rapidly fill with water. Not understanding the underlying geology of the island, they speculated that it was caused by a man-made flood tunnel simply because that explanation would fit in their overall desired narrative that they were chasing a mysterious buried treasure. But the entire story is speculation heaped on top of speculation, and when you start over using evidence and rational analysis the whole thing evaporates into a big pile of nothingness.

 

[GravelTeeth]

once upon a time someone dug a very deep hole on OI that started to rapidly fill with water. Not understanding the underlying geology of the island, they speculated that it was caused by a man-made flood tunnel simply because that explanation would fit in their overall desired narrative that they were chasing a mysterious buried treasure.

Certainly a possibility. Maybe even a probability.

Let's talk about strange coincidences, though: Excavation of the Money Pit (for whatever reason they decided to search there) reaches a certain depth when suddenly water begins to encroach. Some years later, a series of filtered drains are discovered converging on one central man-made channel that disappears into the shoreline heading in the direction of the Money Pit. That's an interesting coincidence. Many years after that, an oddly small and previously unrecorded (despite overlapping membership from previous search syndicates) man-made tunnel is intercepted at 111 feet in the eastern wall of the Money Pit. From which seawater is gushing forth. Huh. That's a really strange coincidence. That chain of weirdness might mean nothing, or it might mean Something. Choose your own adventure.

P.S. Google's A.I. just told me that the drains were thought to be designed to drain water away from the Money Pit ... like, back out to sea?? First time I've ever seen that theory. I think the A.I. is making stuff up.

--GT

 

[SSR]

Case not closed just because you or any other internet pontificators say so. You've repeatedly referred to Smith's Cove as the "working end" of the island while being unable or unwilling to provide citations to support this notion. The finger drains are unsolved. The extent and nature of the small rectangular inlet tunnel at 111 feet is unsolved. These will almost certainly remain unsolved because they've been essentially destroyed by subsequent search efforts. Case most definitely open, to remain so unless and until historical documentation appears that we can evaluate on its merits.

What you meant to say, I'm sure, is "in my opinion ... ."

And not to get drawn in too much on hydro-engineering, which is way out of my depth (!), but if I recall correctly the Money Pit was essentially at the highest point on the island at around 32 feet above sea level. 111 - 32 is still 79 feet below sea level, making the putative path of any flood tunnel from the box drains still a downhill affair over the length of ~500 feet, giving us a roughly 9° gradient. The gradient could be even steeper from distances of less than that to account for speculated collection shafts further inland, or shallower if such structures had their Money Pit-facing egress below sea level.

--GT

You overvalue your baseless opinions about worn out fictions. What is known is known and not made less known by you objecting to it. It is super hard to know. I takes work and effort to know. Knowing does not involve convincing people who refuse to know. You, going on about what we don't know is you refusing to know what can be known. The "box" pier structure in that cove was made of house timbers dating to ca. 1760+/- a couple of decades. That is early days. Casper Wollenhaupt owned that end of the Island early on. He was a merchant of textiles and various wares in Lunenburg. Go on and tell us about what you don' know now. You could fill many books, no doubt. Some of what you don't know you were told you don' know from books. I read books that tell me what we know you don't know.

 

[n2mini]

Just throwing out the Devils Advocate side here, but you are assuming what you read in the books is true/accurate.. A lot of what we know about OI is or was written in articles, books, transcripts etc. yet most on here say those aren't true. Everything we read about history is not 100% true of course. It's hand me down stories, which is easy to have the writer's opinion slipped in there...

 

[chalkoutline]

How important is the source of water?
Does either have bearing on whether there is treasure in the MP?
IOW,
Ground water=no treasure?
Flood tunnels=treasure?

Is that whats behind the back and forth?

 

[Carl-NC]

Some years later, a series of filtered drains are discovered converging on one central man-made channel that disappears into the shoreline heading in the direction of the Money Pit.

The box drains are, so far, the only potentially interesting tidbit that's come out of OI. I say "potentially" because even they are also speculative. Unfortunately, no real archaeologist got in there to study them and there's no recorded evidence of them. Dunsfeld apparently studied them and determined they had no connection to a flood tunnel. I assume they have been obliterated by now, like everything else.

Many years after that, an oddly small and previously unrecorded (despite overlapping membership from previous search syndicates) man-made tunnel is intercepted at 111 feet in the eastern wall of the Money Pit. From which seawater is gushing forth. Huh. That's a really strange coincidence.

Another speculation piled on the heaping gobs of speculation. How was it determined to be man-made?

 

[GravelTeeth]

Casper Wollenhaupt owned that end of the Island early on. He was a merchant of textiles and various wares in Lunenburg.

If you are telling us that your source for "working end of the island" is simply that Wollenhaupt was a businessman, well I'm sorry but that's not going to cut it.

I don't think I've seen this species of arrogance before where you claim to have data but won't share where it came from and then talk down your nose at people for not knowing it. What was it that you said in the other thread ? ... "there is no excuse for you to not be aware of it." And yet you hoard your sources like Smaug's treasure.

I takes work and effort to know.

Is that it then, you feel like you "own" this knowledge because you put some effort into research? Scholars and scientists put lots of effort into their work every day, and then they PUBLISH. It's the only way to keep everyone honest. If you are not afraid of the critique of your peers, put your work where your mouth is.

Otherwise I'm just calling bullshit on these data points you raise which cannot be vetted. So, the notion that there's historical evidence for commerce being done at Smith's Cove? Bullshit. Fake news. Falsified data. Moving on.

--GT

 

[GravelTeeth]

How important is the source of water?
Does either have bearing on whether there is treasure in the MP?
IOW,
Ground water=no treasure?
Flood tunnels=treasure?

Is that whats behind the back and forth?

The supposed flood tunnels were one of the features which brought so much intrigue to the mystery and tended to capture the public's attention. It's included in most of the newpaper article re-tellings from the old days. It doesn't necessarily make the Money Pit as man-made feature impossible, but if there was no "trap" it is just way less interesting, I think.

Going back to the time of Bowdoin and his attempts to destroy the legend for his own personal revenge reasons, the box drains/flood tunnels have been a favorite target for the skeptics who wish to debunk anything connected with the Money Pit phenomenon. You end up with elaborate theories presented as fact and some people ridiculously trying to claim that flood tunnels have been "proven" false, when in reality there are just competing ideas, some more grounded in likelihood than others.

--GT

 

[GravelTeeth]

Another speculation piled on the heaping gobs of speculation. How was it determined to be man-made?

Oh sorry, I thought you'd been reading the whole thread. It was rectangular and lined with beach stones and other strata. You could test this in your own yard with a hose left running on the ground: it would be very unusual for water making its own way to create a squared-off channel (putting aside for the moment Wonnacott's assertion that water can't make its own way through clay till).

Of the two skeptics' theories for this 111 tunnel, the one that says it was an unrecorded searcher tunnel seems far more likely than it being natural.

I'll also take this opportunity to point out that Occam's Razor, which you are fond of, is an awesome tool to keep in your utility belt. It helps make quick assessments about novel situations and get you moving towards a solution or plan of action when required. But it's not a law of the universe. Many, many, MANY things have happened which are incredibly "unlikely" but nevertheless did occur. If these sites had not been obliterated, we might've had a chance to use Holmesian wisdom as a companion to Occam: when you've eliminated the probable, what's left, however improbable, must be the truth (paraphrased).

--GT

 

[chalkoutline]

Since the discussion has contributed, I do have question...
In one of the COOI episodes, it was mentioned that one search team poured green die into the MP and it came at Smith's Cove and also north of the island.

If this is true...does that indicate natural voids or flood tunnels?

 

[Armchair detective]

P.S. Google's A.I. just told me that the drains were thought to be designed to drain water away from the Money Pit ... like, back out to sea?? First time I've ever seen that theory. I think the A.I. is making stuff up.

--GT

I hate to be gauche, but if you look on an old thread "OAK ISLAND FACTUAL" post #902 you will find a couple of aerial photos of Dunfield's
excavation. If you look at the #3 arrow (the other one) it looks like there's a sewer line draining into the sea. I don't know when it was built, nor when the finger drains became part of the legend, but it sure is suggestive.

 

[GravelTeeth]

when the finger drains became part of the legend

Finger box-drains were unearthed in 1850 with Truro company's work. Truro was also the first to have noticed that the water in the shafts was seawater rising and falling with the tides.

--GT

 

[SSR]

If you are telling us that your source for "working end of the island" is simply that Wollenhaupt was a businessman, well I'm sorry but that's not going to cut it.

I don't think I've seen this species of arrogance before where you claim to have data but won't share where it came from and then talk down your nose at people for not knowing it. What was it that you said in the other thread ? ... "there is no excuse for you to not be aware of it." And yet you hoard your sources like Smaug's treasure.


Is that it then, you feel like you "own" this knowledge because you put some effort into research? Scholars and scientists put lots of effort into their work every day, and then they PUBLISH. It's the only way to keep everyone honest. If you are not afraid of the critique of your peers, put your work where your mouth is.

Otherwise I'm just calling bullshit on these data points you raise which cannot be vetted. So, the notion that there's historical evidence for commerce being done at Smith's Cove? Bullshit. Fake news. Falsified data. Moving on.

--GT

Do you own not knowing? What we know, we all know if we choose to make ourselves aware of it. You have closed yourself off from what we know in order to claim you not knowing is a legitimate position. You not sharing in what little we do know is an example of laziness. Wasting time propping up the "we no knowing therefore all is possible" position is about saving this farce from the sterilizing effect of the light day.

 

[GravelTeeth]

Do you own not knowing? What we know, we all know if we choose to make ourselves aware of it. You have closed yourself off from what we know in order to claim you not knowing is a legitimate position. You not sharing in what little we do know is an example of laziness. Wasting time propping up the "we no knowing therefore all is possible" position is about saving this farce from the sterilizing effect of the light day.

Please spare us this quivering jello of a justification for not being able to back up what you claim. It's clear that there are no valid sources which say the things that you have said. You have crafted summaries from logical leaps not supported in the record. In fact you have changed your story at least twice. You began with the implication of Wollenhaupt's activity, without proof, then dashed over to fishery/salting works, and now it's back to Wollenhaupt again.

It's clear to me that you got your fishery/salting works idea from Dennis King's thoughtful argument here ("How the Finger Drains ..." at (i) ), the only problem being that King made that statement as a hypothetical, part of a larger framework, and it was not intended as a statement of fact. Poor scholarship on your part. Perhaps that's why you retreated from this position.

I don't give a womp rat's hiney if you believe your own dreck, but I object to your making statements as if of fact when they are merely speculation, and doing so while clothing yourself with false authority. People are easily misled and will be fooled into thinking you can back this stuff up when YOU CAN'T. Prove me wrong.

--GT

 

[Armchair detective]

Finger box-drains were unearthed in 1850 with Truro company's work. Truro was also the first to have noticed that the water in the shafts was seawater rising and falling with the tides.

--GT

Okay - that's half of the answer.

Referring back to the pictures mentioned (the one with the people standing there) you can see an old broken sewer line apparently made of clay. When building houses on the island, when did people start using clay pipes for their sewer lines?

This will tell us if this sewer line possibly existed when the Truro Co was there

 

[Armchair detective]

Referring back to the pictures mentioned (the one with the people standing there) you can see an old broken sewer line apparently made of clay..

Sorry thinking of a different picture. I meant the one with the clamshell bucket.

 

[Armchair detective]

Just thought of something.

This pipe is running uphill parallel to and looks like within the property lines of lot 18. We know John Smith bought this lot in 1795 and.built a house on the island in 1824? presumably on his own property. So if this line existed in 1824 and Truro found the finger drains in 1850....

 

[chalkoutline]

From a common sense point of view...the Onslow company dug down 90ft and encountered salt water. Later searchers dug parallel shafts on all sides of the original MP and deeper than 90ft without encountering salt water. It wasn't until they dug horizontally towards the MP that they encountered salt water which in turn flooded their newly dug shaft.

Doesn't that indicate the MP was dug over a void or chamber filled with salt water and the horizontal shafts dug by the other seachers were merely breaching the same chamber or void?

 

[chalkoutline]

From a common sense point of view...the Onslow company dug down 90ft and encountered salt water. Later searchers dug parallel shafts on all sides of the original MP and deeper than 90ft without encountering salt water. It wasn't until they dug horizontally towards the MP that they encountered salt water which in turn flooded their newly dug shaft.

Doesn't that indicate the MP was dug over a void or chamber filled with salt water and the horizontal shafts dug by the other seachers were merely breaching the same chamber or void?

If that makes sense...can the size of the void or chamber be estimated using the distance the other searchers dug their parallel shafts?

For example; if other searchers dug their shafts 20ft from the original MP shaft, wouldn't that make the void no larger than 40x40 feet? And more likely 30x30 feet?

 

[chalkoutline]

If that makes sense...can the size of the void or chamber be estimated using the distance the other searchers dug their parallel shafts?

For example; if other searchers dug their shafts 20ft from the original MP shaft, wouldn't that make the void no larger than 40x40 feet? And more likely 30x30 feet?

Let's suppose it is a man-made chamber with treasure and Rick and Marty drop a can right on top of it all the way to bedrock to hold the water back.

Is there a way to get down there and preserve the treasure or do you think they'll just hammer grab it to the surface?