Is this a Grand?

naturegirl

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This was the first I ever found, 20 years ago. I was fishing at a pond by a creek and happened to look down, and there it was. Back then I thought it was crude, now I have a new apperciation for it. Can't id it though, the notches, stem and flaking on the base make me think it's a Grand. But it's thick, blunt, and longer than it is wide. So I don't know. I don't know what the material is either, but I love the pink striping in it.

naturegirl

it's 1 3/4" long, 1" wide
 

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I don't know, Naturegirl. Here's a collage of your point and a point (from my grandpa's frame) that Neanderthal identified as being a Grand. See if you think they have similar characteristics.
Maybe Neanderthal will see this and can tell you for sure.
Its a nice find--did you find it here in Oklahoma?
sandcreek
 

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Your point does look like a Grand. The material appears to be a flint hills permian chert from there in KS. Sandcreek's example is pretty typical of one that has had several resharpenings, with a diminished blade area.

The "rounded" scraper tip of your piece is pretty common for the culture. On one Hopewell site in Mayes CO. OK , we found a good 15-20% of the complete hafted Snyders Afinis points to be hafted scrapers. It's often said that they are all from salvaging, which isn't true. They (Hopewell), at least sometimes, did make them in first form also.
 
Thanks so much Neanderthal, comparing it to Sandcreeks, I can see the notches look to be made the same, but otherwise they don't hardly resemble each other. But it was the notches in the drawings that swayed me towards a grand. Such a fun game. Thanks again.

It came from around here Sandcreek, I checked your frames when I was trying to Id it, thanks for taking the time to post that comparison, that's a lot of help.

naturegirl
 
Neanderthal said:
Your point does look like a Grand. The material appears to be a flint hills permian chert from there in KS. Sandcreek's example is pretty typical of one that has had several resharpenings, with a diminished blade area.

The "rounded" scraper tip of your piece is pretty common for the culture. On one Hopewell site in Mayes CO. OK , we found a good 15-20% of the complete hafted Snyders Afinis points to be hafted scrapers. It's often said that they are all from salvaging, which isn't true. They (Hopewell), at least sometimes, did make them in first form also.
nice point nature girl.im sure matt is on point with the type.matt you did raise an interesting question or two.the first thing that i noticed about her point/scraper was the rounded tip and i kind of thought it was a hafted chisel or maybe even a spokeshave,you can see in the pic of the side that has the white splotch near the tip that it has a spokeshave look to it or was it damaged?im sure you know there is a diffference between a hafted scraper and a hafted chisel,but they sometimes get lumped together.i personally think this would be typed a hafted chisel.scrapers would only have one worked/use edge at a much more steep of an angle than this artifact imo.the other interesting question you brought up was whether hafted scrapers were made that way or were salvaged points.i cant say one way or the other.i find alot of hafted scrapers here in ohio and have always been very intrigued by them.what proof do you have to say that they were sometimes purpose made flint tools?
 
What is a hafted chisel? I can't seem to find any info on them or pics of one. In Converses book Ohio flint types he has pics of hafted scrapers that are longer in size, is that what you are saying is a hafted chisel? Also on page 154 of said book he states, so many are seen which conform in style that it has been suggested that they are not salvaged from broken points but were purposely made as scrapers "pentagonal base hafted scrapers" end qoute... :notworthy:
 
hafted chisels resemble Hafted scrapers but they are different in several ways.the probable wood working edge fairly small,located closer to the former tip than the present base.unifacially chipped,the edges are not steeply beveled like scrapers but are angled around 25 to 30 degrees to help give it a sharper edge.the obverse working edge may have some thinning flakes to add a even more sharper edge.there may be use polish/wear on the lower portions near the edge.
here is a frame of hafted scrapers and hafted chisels.bottom row is mostly hafted scrapers.the second row from the bottom has mostly hafted chisels.there are also excurvate edge knives that also get confused with hafted scrapers also.the rounded working edge is chipped frrom each face making a new edge midway between both faces,they dont usually exhibit scraper like wear and are usually knife sharp.the mushroom head looking ones are excurvate edge knives.
DSCF2694.jpg
 
Gotcha my homeslice, i get get confused with all the info one " Ohio experts" says this the other that, but do they bust a s s like us in the bush, dought it, we learn alot just in the hunting we do, like how certain high areas only have one type of artifact on them we have that down to a science, there we go knowing what to expect to find . Let us drink and gain knowledge from that...
 
i hear you my brother flintmaster!didnt know there were any experts on this site.i get confused too.i prefer the dirt over a book any day.what hillside we hittin in the a.m.?screw the snow,i got the leaf blower all gassed up.the heavys are flowing good tonight :headbang:
 
creek astronaut said:
nice point nature girl.im sure matt is on point with the type.matt you did raise an interesting question or two.the first thing that i noticed about her point/scraper was the rounded tip and i kind of thought it was a hafted chisel or maybe even a spokeshave,you can see in the pic of the side that has the white splotch near the tip that it has a spokeshave look to it or was it damaged?im sure you know there is a diffference between a hafted scraper and a hafted chisel,but they sometimes get lumped together.i personally think this would be typed a hafted chisel.scrapers would only have one worked/use edge at a much more steep of an angle than this artifact imo.the other interesting question you brought up was whether hafted scrapers were made that way or were salvaged points.i cant say one way or the other.i find alot of hafted scrapers here in ohio and have always been very intrigued by them.what proof do you have to say that they were sometimes purpose made flint tools?

That's a very good question CA. For many years, like everyone else, I used to assume that they were only the result of salvaging points. Until one site changed my view.

Let me give you an idea of the site. The site itself is an incredible place, what many people dream of. Most of the sites we find are multi-component, where many different cultures and types are represented. However this site was inhabited by a single culture only, no mixing or blending. It gives the chance to study a certain people and tools they used, without having to postulate what went where. We call it "Hopehell", due to the Hopewell culture that inhabited it. It's not a terribly large site, located at the confluence of a very large creek and major river. The amount of artifacts there are staggering. On average, I would find between 30 and 40 complete, notched points (not including any tools or broken items) every time I am there. Almost all of these pieces are Snyders affinis: Snyders, Grand, Gibson, etc). However, we also did find a few representative stemmed Hopewell forms also (Waubesa / Dickson). Four different main types of un-hafted knives were recognized, including a few squared ones. There also were many Hopewell Picks found, which is typical for Ozark middle-Woodland Hopewell. These "picks" remind a person of a Kerrville knife down in TX. There is usually a crude end with the cortex left on it and then a long, slender distal end that resembles a crude hand-held drill. They are large, often attaining 6"-8" in length or more.

Two pipes and quite a bit of pottery was also recovered. While a few pieces were plainware, most of the pottery was of the highly decorate Cooper Zone Stamped style. It's a dream of mine to have a Hopewell "Zone Stamped" (Cooper, Havanna, I don't care), but I seriously doubt that will happen. They are more rare than hen's teeth, lol.

Several "Cottonrock" celts were found. They are named cottonrock, due to the weight and appearance. They are very light, almost reminding a person of talc. It's from a tripolitic weathering process, mainly from Reed Springs (in the Ozarks area at least). In fact, there are many tripoli mines in the region.

One thing that was amazing was the amount of hafted scrapers at the site, a very high percentage. Calling them all "scrapers" is often a generic term, as they could have been used for other purposes other than scraping hides alone. In fact, the majority were probably used as knives. The "chisel" end did not really seem to be a factor. The vast majority are knapped on one side alone, giving them a very steep edge. These adze-like tips are preferred in the scraping of hides, but also (as noted) would have made a very good knife edge for cutting. Use-wear analysis would have to be done to ascertain the exact use of each piece, although I can be fairly certain by the types of items found in association, they were used in the butchering and scraping process.

A very exciting find were two "hafted scrapers" that made me expand my point of view at the type. What made them so unique, is that they were both in the stages of manufacture as intentional rounded-point hafted scrapers / knives. They have never been resharpened, used, or even finished. Both of them had one notch each. They did not finish and put a notch on the other side because the material and faults prohibited that. Both were made from an oval preform. Out of probably 20,000 complete, notched Snyders Afinis points from Hopehell, these two were among my favorite. It has to do with the information I gained from them. Here is a crappy picture of one of them (It's a pic I had on file, I don't have images of both of them). Both are Grand style points. Even though it is an exception, it does show that at least some were intentionally made to the form.
hs3.jpg
 
thanks for the explanation neanderthal,i have always leaned toward the thinking that atleast some hafted scrapers/chisels/knives/tools were purposely made but never have seen or found anything to convince me one way or the other,i just kind of went with the crowds opinion so to speak.your "hopehell"site sounds like an incredible spot.the piece in the pic you posted is an interesting relic.makes me think i should go back into some boxes and reexamine some pieces i have.funny how these threads sometimes have a life of their own."is this a grand" to talking hafted scraper theories.good stuff matt :thumbsup:
 
It IS good stuff, I prize this piece even more. So... I get it now, now naming them isn't as important as understanding them, but will there be a day when the hafted scrapers purposefully made will be named as such? "Grand hafted scraper?" Not so relevent, I know, but I wonder. Matt I'm bringing this one with me when ever we make the trip over to Arkansas, hopefully this winter, I can't wait to see your museum.

ng
 

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