Jolly Roger origins

[grossmusic]

Anyone know the actual origins of the jolly roger?

In my research, I found that it seemed to have appeared at the turn of the 18th century, & even in its all-black form was meant to be a symbol of "ol' Roger" aka THE DEVIL. In other words, it's a laughing devil.

Now, on tomorrow's Oak Island episode, a woman named Cornwall claims that the Templars created the Jolly Roger when fleeing annihilation in 14th-century France & created the skull & crossbones as a symbol for - get this - John the Baptist, their patron saint - because he was beheaded.

Is there any known connection between John the Baptist & the piratical Jolly Roger?

 

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[Terry Soloman]

Pirates had their own flags, like Gang signs. Many different adaptations.

 

[grossmusic]

Pirates had their own flags, like Gang signs. Many different adaptations.

Yes - those came after 1700, & some are part of a confused lore over the last couple centuries.

 

[GreenHiker]

I saw the same preview for tonight's show and had some of the same questions.

I just searched for the origins of the jolly roger and while Wikipedia had some references to 1600's, there were other sources that told the templar story with a couple of different skull and cross bone origins. From "Today I Found Out" site:

"Records of pirate ships flying flags that signified they were pirates go back just about as far as history is recorded. Of the Jolly Roger line though, the earliest reference is probably of the skull and crossbones flag used by the Knights Templar, who had the world’s biggest naval fleet in the 13 century and were well known for their pirate-like acts on the sea. When the Knights Templar dissolved, with many members forming the Knights of Malta who were equally known for their piracy, they also were known to fly the skull and crossbones."

Their reference to this part of the story seems to come from a Philip Gardiner article that was listed as "alternative history", so not sure of its veracity.

 

[ROBOTCOP13]

If you google 18th Century Scottish gravestones you will see examples of the Jolly Roger symbols: skulls with crossbones and hourglasses with wings.

 

[Raider19962]

I believe the original pirate flag was just an all red flag. Can't remember where I heard that, though.

 

[ROBOTCOP13]

The all red flag was more feared than the skull and cross bones. Red flag signaled death to all who saw it and meant the pirates would show no mercy in the ensuing battle.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

The term probably originted with the French Joile Rouge which means Pretty Red. The red flag was flown to indicate no quarter to be given unless the enemy surrendered. Kind of gallows humor ("Show the pretty flag")

The various "pirates" (freebooters, those with articles of marque, etc. ) adopted a black flag - the idea that a surrendered ship was worth a LOT more than a fight, risking lives of crew and damaging the prize (ship and cargo). Good policy - so it became popular. Then each ship started making their own designs. There were dozens - some with no skull or bones at all.

The modern familiar "Jolly Roger" goes back to the original illustrations in R.L. Stevenson's book "Treasure Island" that was published as a series. That's when the skull and crossbones first became standardized as a "Jolly Roger". The illustrator used the flag of Capt. Edward England. Treasure Island is also the start of the song "16 Men on a Dead Man's Chest."

The Skull & Crossbones flag was also used in the production of Gilbert & Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance in NYC in 1879; where it became a pirate story standard. Fanciful pirate lore.

Just as preposterous as proposing a Templar connection. Gets people to watch an otherwise boring series of events on a Canadian island.

 

[agflit]

Tammy-

Gonna throw ya a bone... haven't had time to do alot of background work..but it may well be the ORIGIN...imo. Something about it just "feels" right. The story behind the origin is pretty disgusting..but it fits.

"A lord of Sidon'


" a lady of Maraclea"...


Keep me in the loop...be interested to hear what you might "dig" up...


ag

 

[Denniss]

I believe the original pirate flag was just an all red flag. Can't remember where I heard that, though.

This is one hypothesis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolly_Roger
Jolly Roger is the traditional English name for the flags flown to identify a pirate ship about to ... It is sometimes claimed that the term derives from "Jolie Rouge" ("Pretty Red") in reference to a red flag used by French privateers.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Interesting that on Oak Island tonight when they got news of the possible lead cross mine location being near Rennes Le Chateau they did a flash back scene of their trip to France. The scene showed a gentleman walking out of a doorway to greet them and just above him on the outside of the building was the classic "pirate" skull and crossbones.

I wonder why it is there on that building?
I wonder how old the building is and if that is an original design?

Could it be a representation of something other than pirates? - sorry couldn't resist!


Now if you were looking for the origin of the skull and crossbones vs jolly roger a simple naming difference results in much more information.

Wait for it....

The symbol is an ancient one, becoming widespread with the medieval Danse Macabre symbolism. From at least the 12th century, it has been used for military flags or insignia and as a warning of the ferocity of the unit displaying it. It became associated with piracy from the 14th century onwards, possibly even earlier. By the 15th century, the symbol had developed into its familiar form.


The Knights Templar organisation, active from the 12th century until their demise in 1307, adopted a skull-and-crossbones flag to identify ships belonging to their vast fleet. [SUP][3][/SUP] The skull and crossbones as a pirate's flag could well predate the Knights Templar [SUP][4]

BOOM!

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_crossbones_(symbol)
[/URL][/SUP]

 

[MiddenMonster]

Well, since we're talking pirates and Jolly Rogers, how about this for a diversion. Load the page and click the arrow. Download options are down the page and on the right. And don't forget to sing along:

Peg-Leg Pedro

Enjoy...and download for future fun!

 

[grossmusic]

I would not be the least surprised about the age of the Jolly Roger, but the connection to John the Baptist is definitely a stretch that makes me skeptical. The NAME Jolly Roger was something I'd researched lightly awhile back & had concluded from various primary & secondary sources that it was as simple as a reference to the ol' devil hisself, often referred to as Roger.

Jolie Rouge definitely provides that missing link back to Templars in France. Names & meanings change over time of course, so it's possible I suppose that everyone could be right.

I totally missed the skull on the French building in the episode. Cool.

I'm not sure many pirates bothered with the arts & crafts of actually putting anything on their black flags. Most just flew the colors red or black, or probably in more cases flew false colors of friendly nations to get close if they were approaching in a credible-looking vessel. If approaching in smaller boats or canoes, no flag at all.

 

[Salvor6]

Tammy from my research I found that the earliest use of the black flag by pirates was by the Barbary pirates in the 1600's, still in use today by the Islamic terrorists ISIS. Henry Every had the first display of the skull and cross bones in 1695. The term "Jolly Roger" was first described by Charles Johnson in his book "A General History of the Pyrates" published in 1724. The use of "Jolie Rogue" does not appear in any historical reference to pirate flags in recorded history. The Templars always used their white flag with the red Jerusalem cross as their symbol.
You are up late!

 

[ROBOTCOP13]

Pirates of New Providence Island in the Bahamas had flags made for them by a sailmaker's widow who accepted payments in brandy.

 

[ARC]

It is French... a version of "'Le Joli Rouge'"... which is what the French called our famous Welsh buddy... Barti.

For those not familiar with Barti...AKA... "Barti Ddu"... or "Black Barti"... then later everyone just called him "Black Bart"...

Short for Bartholomew Roberts.

Barti... was always talked about by the Welsh and the French in lores to children etc,,, they told the stories and the name "Jolly Roger" stuck / was coined.

Stories that based on things like Barti was sorta "the good pirate" etc etc... because he always made is crew go to bed early... no drinking on the ship and never attacking ships on Sundays.

Black Bart is considered to be the "greatest" pirate of all time... documented to have taken over 400 ships... and kept FOUR countries in fear of his rein of the seas.

He was worth an estimated 50 million... which would be the record for most wealthy pirate of all time.

Some trivia for you scallywags added. :P

 

[Red James Cash]

Compared to ching shih,western pirates were amateurs.This Chinese woman,yup a woman,commanded 300 pirate ships and between 20,000 to 40,000 pirates.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Jolie Rouge definitely provides that missing link back to Templars in France. Names & meanings change over time of course, so it's possible I suppose that everyone could be right.

Just because you can tie it to a country dosn't make that connection. I don't believe the Knights Templar had much impact on the later French Navy.

Remember also that French was the "official" language of England from 1066 to the mid 15th Century

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Just because you can tie it to a country dosn't make that connection. I don't believe the Knights Templar had much impact on the later French Navy.

Remember also that French was the "official" language of England from 1066 to the mid 15th Century

Maybe you missed my post or didn't read it...

"The Knights Templar organisation, active from the 12th century until their demise in 1307, adopted a skull-and-crossbones flag to identify ships belonging to their vast fleet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_...bones_(symbol)

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well, BLACKBEARD was also beheaded... his skull was taken to Virginia. "Legend" indicate that his lower part of the skull was the "Drinking Cup" at the TOMB (Yale U), for the BONESMEN; Skull & Bones Society... dunno. Had a book on it a few years ago, too.