Eureka!
Full Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2014
- Messages
- 159
- Reaction score
- 79
- Golden Thread
- 0
- Location
- Northeast Coast USA
- Detector(s) used
- Garrett AT PRO 5x8 Coil - VULCAN 360 Pinpointer -Lesche Shovel
- Primary Interest:
- Metal Detecting
- #1
Thread Owner
LAWS - DESIGNED TO DISCOURAGE METAL DETECTING - WHY & HOW
A THREAD TO DISCUSS AND MAKE SOME SENSE OF RESTRICTIVE NATURE OF THE LAWS, PERMITS AND REGULATIONS REGARDING METAL DETECTING ON PUBLIC LANDS IN THE USA.
YES, VENT HERE - WHO KNOWS MAYBE YOUR IDEAS, LOGIC, COMPLAINT OR EXPERIENCE MAY FALL ON EARS THAT WILL BRING ABOUT CHANGE(s) FOR THE BETTER. CAN YOU DIG IT? (pun intended)
JAMES MADISON (quote)
"It will be of little "avail" ("use,help or benefit") to people; if the Laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood."
-James Madison
Father of the Constitution
Fourth President of the United States
HERE'S SOME OF MY THOUGHTS:
My thoughts are that we have to bring order to our pastime. The restrictions put on MD'ing on Public Lands are convoluted, inconsistent from area to area and department to department, and too complicated for the average person to research and in some cases to comply with, without some forms of undue hardships.
DID YOU EVER RESEARCH THE FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY, CITY, TOWN, VILLAGE, HAMLET LAWS TO METAL DETECT ON PUBLIC LANDS?
If you ever researched the laws with regard to Metal Detecting on Government owned property (which can be construed to mean any property (Land, Sea or Air-rights) other than Private Property you would know that there are a myriad of the different agencies to check before you decide to search on Federal, State, County, City, Town, or Village properties. Departments of Governments can include Bureau of Land, National Parks, Historic Landmarks Commissions, The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) (and more). It's very discouraging and that's exactly what they want the process to be: DISCOURAGING.
PASTIMES THAT ARE REGULATED - WHY?
Functions like Hunting, Fishing, Wreck Diving, Boating, Jetskiing, Mining, Bird Watching, as well as Metal Detecting are all regulated in some way or another by the Government.
BAN EVERYTHING! - THE TRUTH IS THEY CAN'T - THE CONSTITUTION PROTECTS US
The Government would probably love to BAN MD'ing altogether but nothing in the USA can be outrightly BANNED if in any way it'll violate a person's (or a commercial entity's) Constitutional Rights. In the US, when something is BANNED it can be Constitutionally challenged in a Court of Law (but could cost $$$$ and TIME - they know that). So, knowing that, when a government agency doesn't like something that cannot be banned and would rather not face a challenge in a Court of Law; instead they will REGULATE it by passing Laws which require that you apply for a PERMIT to preform that function. They will author the Regulation and place as many RESTRICTIONS on it as they possibly can, complicate the process to obtain permits, thereby making the Regulation nearly impossible to comply with; thereby DISCOURAGING as many permit applicants as possible to reduce the popularity of the function.
MAKE LAWS, REGULATE AND RESTRICT:
To give you an example of how the Authorities author laws that are designed to REGULATE and RESTRICT take Billboards for the example:
Most Municipalities are not privy to Billboards being built at all. They see it as a form of blight in most cases and want to discourage the construction of them. They can't outright ban them because it would violate our constitutional rights of Free Speech. Instead they come up with restrictions and excuses for the restrictions. Example: "Billboards are a distraction to drivers and therefore cause accidents, so we will not allow Billboards to be built closer than 660 feet from any major highway and at that distance they can only be 200 sq ft in size and beyond the 660 ft they can increase in size by 1 sq. ft. for every foot beyond."
(A Municipality in New Jersey tried to ban Neon Signs and was challenged in a Court of Law - From what I understand, it went to the Supreme Court and it was Held that the Ban was a Violation of Free Speech and was unjustified).
Back to the Outdoor Sign - They knew by placing that restriction it's going to be a game changer for any outdoor sign company because what's the sense of spending $200,000 to build a billboard that is so far from the road and so small that nobody passing will see it and no company will want to layout any cash to advertise on it. There's no value in doing that! But what they did is that they BANNED it by the choking regulations that they placed on where a billboard can be located. They knew that no business in there right mind would see any value in building a billboard in a location far from a major well traveled road - that would not be profitable to the company nor informative to the audience (the Public).
To give an example of how convoluted Laws can get; let's take the Times Square District in New York. The Sign Code states that any and ALL buildings MUST have a Billboard and it MUST be Illuminated or you face a fine. Meanwhile in all districts other than Times Square, Billboards are heavily RESTRICTED. Is that fair?. Fortunes were made off of these Billboards and if my building is one inch out of the District - I lose out. Doesn't make sense.
As far as it goes with Metal Detecting on PUBLIC PROPERTY; by the time you learn that you are limited in WHERE you can search, WHEN you can search, HOW you can search and WITH what you can dig with you will get so discouraged that you won't see any value in taking up a pastime whose requirements are so restrictive that you feel almost like your carrying a gun around when all your doing is holding a Metal Detector. There's no profit or value to this; monetarily, nor educationally.
Yes, you are permitted to MD on Public Lands BUT you need to 1. Apply for a Permit (to the proper Authority); 2. in some cases provide a Certificate of Insurance and; 3. abide by the regulation set forth by that Authority or Agency; 3. Abide by the APPLICABLE Federal and State Laws; 4.Relinquish the Relic to the State and have no vote in where the Relic will end up. For all you know it will be store away and forgotten about just as if it were still in the ground.
HOW can I dig? WHEN can I dig? WHERE can I dig? DISCOURAGE THE MASSES BY LIMITING THE WAY THE FUNCTION IS PERFORMED
To DISCOURAGE they'll make it difficult by RESTRICTING the equipment size; such as, your digging tool can't be over 4" long with a handle less than two ft in length; You are restricted to certain areas, in the restricted areas you can only dig 25 ft. away from any tree; Anything you find belongs to the State and must be turned over to the Jurisdiction that controls the place where the item was found. Oh, and you can only dig during the months when the ground is FROZEN - thank you very much - I'm just going to DETECT and if I think that something is underground I'll just be happy in knowing that I may have found something - But I won't dig it up!
What a great pastime! It's OK - I don't mind applying for a permit (10 bucks per location) spending Hundreds on equipment and driving 50 miles to a State Park Site (gas is only $3.90 a gal. and my car gets 18 mpg) - the Tolls? no problem - I got an Easy Pass - Parking Fees? Well OK. Food?.......ALL TO FIND A MUSKET BALL and THREE WHEATIES and some clad. While I'm at it I'll remove all the Pop-tops and Bottle-caps from the land at no charge - I'll keep the place clean because nobody else is. Here, wait, before I go; let me hit myself on the head with a hammer because it feels so good when I stop!!
PENALTY FOR VIOLATIONS
Once you read the the Laws and Regulations and learn the penalty for a violation, I guarantee that it will make most looking to get into MD'ing become sick to their stomach and give up if they started or not start at all. Sometimes, Ignorance is Bliss.
In addition, there are stiff penalties for any violation of the restrictions placed on us. Most, including myself would argue that the penalties are "Cruel and Unusual Punishment. So what they may be really accomplishing is making Criminals out of normal everyday law abiding citizens.
HEY, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY (EPS) - WHAT'S THE LOGIC OF THIS?
Whats the logic of this? A Relic Hunter finds and removes LEAD musket balls from the ground and streams - that's not criminal! Lead has been deemed as toxic to the environment by the Environmental Protection Agency which issues HUNTING PERMITS so that Hunters can KILL animals with LEAD and put some more LEAD back into the ground when they miss a shot. Relic Hunter's are actually Lead Remediation experts.
So the next time you're stopped by an Official for MD'ing RELICS, tell them that you're an "Underground Lead Removal Specialist" and that you're searching the area for underground HAZARDOUS LEAD THAT WAS LEFT BY SOLDERS FIGHTING WARS TO KEEP OUR COUNTRY FREE!
Meanwhile for most, Historical Relics remain underground; (some polluting the land but for none to enjoy nor to educate therefrom).
ENJOY YOURSELF, SEARCHING!
A THREAD TO DISCUSS AND MAKE SOME SENSE OF RESTRICTIVE NATURE OF THE LAWS, PERMITS AND REGULATIONS REGARDING METAL DETECTING ON PUBLIC LANDS IN THE USA.
YES, VENT HERE - WHO KNOWS MAYBE YOUR IDEAS, LOGIC, COMPLAINT OR EXPERIENCE MAY FALL ON EARS THAT WILL BRING ABOUT CHANGE(s) FOR THE BETTER. CAN YOU DIG IT? (pun intended)
JAMES MADISON (quote)
"It will be of little "avail" ("use,help or benefit") to people; if the Laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood."
-James Madison
Father of the Constitution
Fourth President of the United States
HERE'S SOME OF MY THOUGHTS:
My thoughts are that we have to bring order to our pastime. The restrictions put on MD'ing on Public Lands are convoluted, inconsistent from area to area and department to department, and too complicated for the average person to research and in some cases to comply with, without some forms of undue hardships.
DID YOU EVER RESEARCH THE FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY, CITY, TOWN, VILLAGE, HAMLET LAWS TO METAL DETECT ON PUBLIC LANDS?
If you ever researched the laws with regard to Metal Detecting on Government owned property (which can be construed to mean any property (Land, Sea or Air-rights) other than Private Property you would know that there are a myriad of the different agencies to check before you decide to search on Federal, State, County, City, Town, or Village properties. Departments of Governments can include Bureau of Land, National Parks, Historic Landmarks Commissions, The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) (and more). It's very discouraging and that's exactly what they want the process to be: DISCOURAGING.
PASTIMES THAT ARE REGULATED - WHY?
Functions like Hunting, Fishing, Wreck Diving, Boating, Jetskiing, Mining, Bird Watching, as well as Metal Detecting are all regulated in some way or another by the Government.
BAN EVERYTHING! - THE TRUTH IS THEY CAN'T - THE CONSTITUTION PROTECTS US
The Government would probably love to BAN MD'ing altogether but nothing in the USA can be outrightly BANNED if in any way it'll violate a person's (or a commercial entity's) Constitutional Rights. In the US, when something is BANNED it can be Constitutionally challenged in a Court of Law (but could cost $$$$ and TIME - they know that). So, knowing that, when a government agency doesn't like something that cannot be banned and would rather not face a challenge in a Court of Law; instead they will REGULATE it by passing Laws which require that you apply for a PERMIT to preform that function. They will author the Regulation and place as many RESTRICTIONS on it as they possibly can, complicate the process to obtain permits, thereby making the Regulation nearly impossible to comply with; thereby DISCOURAGING as many permit applicants as possible to reduce the popularity of the function.
MAKE LAWS, REGULATE AND RESTRICT:
To give you an example of how the Authorities author laws that are designed to REGULATE and RESTRICT take Billboards for the example:
Most Municipalities are not privy to Billboards being built at all. They see it as a form of blight in most cases and want to discourage the construction of them. They can't outright ban them because it would violate our constitutional rights of Free Speech. Instead they come up with restrictions and excuses for the restrictions. Example: "Billboards are a distraction to drivers and therefore cause accidents, so we will not allow Billboards to be built closer than 660 feet from any major highway and at that distance they can only be 200 sq ft in size and beyond the 660 ft they can increase in size by 1 sq. ft. for every foot beyond."
(A Municipality in New Jersey tried to ban Neon Signs and was challenged in a Court of Law - From what I understand, it went to the Supreme Court and it was Held that the Ban was a Violation of Free Speech and was unjustified).
Back to the Outdoor Sign - They knew by placing that restriction it's going to be a game changer for any outdoor sign company because what's the sense of spending $200,000 to build a billboard that is so far from the road and so small that nobody passing will see it and no company will want to layout any cash to advertise on it. There's no value in doing that! But what they did is that they BANNED it by the choking regulations that they placed on where a billboard can be located. They knew that no business in there right mind would see any value in building a billboard in a location far from a major well traveled road - that would not be profitable to the company nor informative to the audience (the Public).
To give an example of how convoluted Laws can get; let's take the Times Square District in New York. The Sign Code states that any and ALL buildings MUST have a Billboard and it MUST be Illuminated or you face a fine. Meanwhile in all districts other than Times Square, Billboards are heavily RESTRICTED. Is that fair?. Fortunes were made off of these Billboards and if my building is one inch out of the District - I lose out. Doesn't make sense.
As far as it goes with Metal Detecting on PUBLIC PROPERTY; by the time you learn that you are limited in WHERE you can search, WHEN you can search, HOW you can search and WITH what you can dig with you will get so discouraged that you won't see any value in taking up a pastime whose requirements are so restrictive that you feel almost like your carrying a gun around when all your doing is holding a Metal Detector. There's no profit or value to this; monetarily, nor educationally.
Yes, you are permitted to MD on Public Lands BUT you need to 1. Apply for a Permit (to the proper Authority); 2. in some cases provide a Certificate of Insurance and; 3. abide by the regulation set forth by that Authority or Agency; 3. Abide by the APPLICABLE Federal and State Laws; 4.Relinquish the Relic to the State and have no vote in where the Relic will end up. For all you know it will be store away and forgotten about just as if it were still in the ground.
HOW can I dig? WHEN can I dig? WHERE can I dig? DISCOURAGE THE MASSES BY LIMITING THE WAY THE FUNCTION IS PERFORMED
To DISCOURAGE they'll make it difficult by RESTRICTING the equipment size; such as, your digging tool can't be over 4" long with a handle less than two ft in length; You are restricted to certain areas, in the restricted areas you can only dig 25 ft. away from any tree; Anything you find belongs to the State and must be turned over to the Jurisdiction that controls the place where the item was found. Oh, and you can only dig during the months when the ground is FROZEN - thank you very much - I'm just going to DETECT and if I think that something is underground I'll just be happy in knowing that I may have found something - But I won't dig it up!
What a great pastime! It's OK - I don't mind applying for a permit (10 bucks per location) spending Hundreds on equipment and driving 50 miles to a State Park Site (gas is only $3.90 a gal. and my car gets 18 mpg) - the Tolls? no problem - I got an Easy Pass - Parking Fees? Well OK. Food?.......ALL TO FIND A MUSKET BALL and THREE WHEATIES and some clad. While I'm at it I'll remove all the Pop-tops and Bottle-caps from the land at no charge - I'll keep the place clean because nobody else is. Here, wait, before I go; let me hit myself on the head with a hammer because it feels so good when I stop!!
PENALTY FOR VIOLATIONS
Once you read the the Laws and Regulations and learn the penalty for a violation, I guarantee that it will make most looking to get into MD'ing become sick to their stomach and give up if they started or not start at all. Sometimes, Ignorance is Bliss.
In addition, there are stiff penalties for any violation of the restrictions placed on us. Most, including myself would argue that the penalties are "Cruel and Unusual Punishment. So what they may be really accomplishing is making Criminals out of normal everyday law abiding citizens.
HEY, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY (EPS) - WHAT'S THE LOGIC OF THIS?
Whats the logic of this? A Relic Hunter finds and removes LEAD musket balls from the ground and streams - that's not criminal! Lead has been deemed as toxic to the environment by the Environmental Protection Agency which issues HUNTING PERMITS so that Hunters can KILL animals with LEAD and put some more LEAD back into the ground when they miss a shot. Relic Hunter's are actually Lead Remediation experts.
So the next time you're stopped by an Official for MD'ing RELICS, tell them that you're an "Underground Lead Removal Specialist" and that you're searching the area for underground HAZARDOUS LEAD THAT WAS LEFT BY SOLDERS FIGHTING WARS TO KEEP OUR COUNTRY FREE!
Meanwhile for most, Historical Relics remain underground; (some polluting the land but for none to enjoy nor to educate therefrom).
ENJOY YOURSELF, SEARCHING!
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