LDM why you cant get it !

[JackH]

LDM why you can't get it !

Red Mountain, Mt Mc Dowell is where it is, and that is on the Salt River Indian Reservation, occupied by the Fortunate Pima-Maricopa.

Note: until this date 03.31.2011 my reference was the Great Yavapai occupied this Reservation. The Native American's who by Legend repulsed Peralta's Legion were truly Great. The Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community was established June 14, 1879, therefore I have corrected this mistake as no disrespect was implied.

I will admit I know less about what has been said than most here on this subject, but I do know what I have read and seen what is available on LDM.

My research work was quite extensive, when I first decided to look for the LDM.

I read everything I could find, and after 30 days, and well over $1000 invested, I didn't need to go to Arizona afterall. But I do have a really nice detector !

That little library or museum in Arizona (Tempe ?) that has all the maps ! I can say that one of those is most accurate based on the satellite imagery available thru Google earth. That "HEART" is clearly visible from the imagery I used in my research. Satellite imagery is updated annually, so the current shot may not show what convinced me.

I believe the two mustered out cavalry soldiers from Fort Mc Dowell who showed up with the bags of gold, passed by Red Mountain heading southeast. They crossing over the site of the Massacre, and the two miners finding the gold on top of the ground on the same spot.

The American Australian reports remnants of quartz all over the place in one area there. His explanation of El Sombrero there ! I believe is Spot On.

I really don't care if anyone has been looking for it for 30 years or whatever, that just tells me you have been looking in the wrong place.

I believe the Peralta's extracted most of the surface gold thru the Superstition expeditions. I also want to believe that the most gold found by the Peralta's was from one spot "LDM" at Red Mountain.

That Gentleman from Australia who is selling his DVD's I believe is LOCKED ON.

I will leave you with this last shot, the arroyo's leading away from Red Mountain "CLEARLY" show that the banks of those arroyo's are unnaturally formed, which tells me, THAT is where the Squaw's and the children gathered the dirt to change the landscape around the 'Mine'.

Fire away........J

 

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[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hey Jack,

I will be the first to say, if you've got a theory, dont let anyone talk you out of it but yourself.

On that note...

The museum is out in Apache Junction, Az. I will agree with you on the maps, there are several, in my opinion, that will get you to the Lost Dutchman area. It just depends on if your correct on the "area" you pick.

I believed the "2 Soldier" story as well when i started a few months ago. After reading Thomas Glovers book "Part 1, The Golden Dream", he gives another "2 soldier" story that is not located in the Phoenix area that sounds an aweful lot like the "2 Soldier" story in the Lost Dutchman Legend. The difference is, the other story is "documented"....The Lost Dutchman version is not. Maybe it was "woven" into the Lost Dutchman?

As for the "massacre", some people dont even believe it took place. I however do believe that part. But, if you were to research into the "notes" on the massacre, you will find that the person that investigated that actually "followed" the "body trail" back into a different spot than where you are saying the Lost Dutchman is located. (This is not to say you are wrong)

As for your "hearts", i have pictures myself of a few "hearts" in the area that i would be willing to post if you would like to see them. I cant speak for anyone else on here but, i know several of the other members have "heart" pictures as well and they may post them too. (A few have been posted on another discussion including one of mine)

About all i can agree with you on is....."looking in the wrong place". Thats obvious, or someone would have probably found it by now.....Or they just aint sayin......

Thanks,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hey Jack,

I will be the first to say, if you've got a theory, dont let anyone talk you out of it but yourself.

On that note...

The museum is out in Apache Junction, Az. I will agree with you on the maps, there are several, in my opinion, that will get you to the Lost Dutchman area. It just depends on if your correct on the "area" you pick.

I believed the "2 Soldier" story as well when i started a few months ago. After reading Thomas Glovers book "Part 1, The Golden Dream", he gives another "2 soldier" story that is not located in the Phoenix area that sounds an aweful lot like the "2 Soldier" story in the Lost Dutchman Legend. The difference is, the other story is "documented"....The Lost Dutchman version is not. Maybe it was "woven" into the Lost Dutchman?

As for the "massacre", some people dont even believe it took place. I however do believe that part. But, if you were to research into the "notes" on the massacre, you will find that the person that investigated that actually "followed" the "body trail" back into a different spot than where you are saying the Lost Dutchman is located. (This is not to say you are wrong)

As for your "hearts", i have pictures myself of a few "hearts" in the area that i would be willing to post if you would like to see them. I cant speak for anyone else on here but, i know several of the other members have "heart" pictures as well and they may post them too. (A few have been posted on another discussion including one of mine)

About all i can agree with you on is....."looking in the wrong place". Thats obvious, or someone would have probably found it by now.....Or they just aint sayin......

Thanks,
Travis

Maybe you can get Dr. Glover to sign your "Part 1: The Golden Dream" at this years Rendezvous. He makes some of them, on occasion.

There is a serious problem with the source of the massacre story. That's why I no longer believe it.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

WELCOME TO TREASURENET JackH!

Interesting theory you have presented; locating the LDM inside a reservation makes it almost impossible to prove or disprove, unfortunately. If it is true, it may be possible to negotiate some kind of permit through the Bureau of Indian Affairs, I don't know of anyone whom has ever done this successfully. Large mining companies have cut deals for coal and uranium in years past, so it may be possible.

I too have doubts about the 2 soldiers story as well as the massacre, which we have debated quite a lot. A problem is that some early treasure writers have added elements to the Lost Dutchman story, so much so that getting it winnowed out is difficult today.

Thank you for sharing your theory, and again welcome!
Oroblanco

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hey Jack,

I will be the first to say, if you've got a theory, dont let anyone talk you out of it but yourself.

On that note...

The museum is out in Apache Junction, Az. I will agree with you on the maps, there are several, in my opinion, that will get you to the Lost Dutchman area. It just depends on if your correct on the "area" you pick.

I believed the "2 Soldier" story as well when i started a few months ago. After reading Thomas Glovers book "Part 1, The Golden Dream", he gives another "2 soldier" story that is not located in the Phoenix area that sounds an aweful lot like the "2 Soldier" story in the Lost Dutchman Legend. The difference is, the other story is "documented"....The Lost Dutchman version is not. Maybe it was "woven" into the Lost Dutchman?

As for the "massacre", some people dont even believe it took place. I however do believe that part. But, if you were to research into the "notes" on the massacre, you will find that the person that investigated that actually "followed" the "body trail" back into a different spot than where you are saying the Lost Dutchman is located. (This is not to say you are wrong)

As for your "hearts", i have pictures myself of a few "hearts" in the area that i would be willing to post if you would like to see them. I cant speak for anyone else on here but, i know several of the other members have "heart" pictures as well and they may post them too. (A few have been posted on another discussion including one of mine)

About all i can agree with you on is....."looking in the wrong place". Thats obvious, or someone would have probably found it by now.....Or they just aint sayin......

Thanks,
Travis

Maybe you can get Dr. Glover to sign your "Part 1: The Golden Dream" at this years Rendezvous. He makes some of them, on occasion.

There is a serious problem with the source of the massacre story. That's why I no longer believe it.

Joe

Joe,

I dont own the "Part 1" book remember? I dont think the Phoenix Library will be too happy with me getting their copy signed! Then again, maybe they wont care!

Can you elaborate on the massacre source?

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Joe,

If there was no "massacre", whats the answer to where Silverhair and Goldilocks (I dont want to go look up their real names) get that gold that they found?

Thanks,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Travis,

No I won't elaborate on the problem with the source.

The following pictures were taken just above the massacre grounds, and right next to a ravine that comes down off of the main mountain.

This is said to be what is left of a very old arrastra. I have a picture of a gold pan with a few flakes of gold in it, said to have been panned out of the dirt in the post hole:

This picture is said to be of the remains of a roasting oven, close to the arrastra, possibly used to roast ore:

This is all very close to a very old mine. During the rainy season, my guess would be that the people working the mine, would dam up the ravine for enough water to process the ore they were crushing.

I don't know $#!t about rocks or mining, so I could be wrong. It might explain some loose gold ore laying on the ground nearby. Silverlock and Malhm did not stumble on that particular spot, but found it by using a map that a prospector had given Silverlock up in Idaho. Do you know where that information comes from?

The only way to get close to the truth is to read all of the old accounts, and have them close at hand to constantly compare. I believe the pit mine above Roger's Trough was found by people who knew the stories, legends and history of that area......forward and backwards.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

-tag-

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Joe,

Great pictures. Seems like an aweful lot of work to go through for some mountains that dont have gold in them huh?

I did not know they used a map to find their spot and no, i dont know where that information comes from. Can/will you give that "up"?

Let me ask some questions also.

Would you agree or disagree that all of the stories about the massacre, the 2 soldiers, the Stone Maps, Walker/Weiser, Chunning/Deering, and "Indian Gold" dont necessarily mean anything when it comes to Waltz and his mine being "real"? I obviously havent done the amount of research you have but could it be possible that the legend and the "story" from Petrasch/Thomas and Holmes is enough of a "story" by itself to make all of the other "stuff" surrounding it not matter that much? (Obviously I'm even talking about leaving out the "fluff" in the manuscript)

I'm not saying that all of the other things dont have any value, I'm just trying to ask, would THAT story alone be enough for you (or anyone) to believe that there was a rich gold mine out there and that there is a possibility that someone could figure it out now with only that information?

My point to this is, I havent done enough research, or do i care to right now, on all of the other "stuff" that surrounds this Legend. I have only picked up what i know so far from the few books i have purchased up to this point. I realize why you ask questions and appreciate the fact that people like you have learned that some of the "stuff" surrounding the Lost Dutchman is simply not true.

You see I dont believe it will help me to FIND the Lost Dutchman if it so happens that the massacre never happened. I am personally keeping it "simple" at this point. Meaning i'm trying not to stray too far away from the "clues" and the "originals".

I personally believe someone named Jacob Waltz lived here and had a "rich" mine. How he found it, i dont care.............How I find it is my main concern!

Thanks again,
Travis

P.S.
This post is not meant to devalue anyones research or "time" that they have put into this legend. I continue to read on this legend and its stories every night. I am just trying to hint that it is easy to get "bogged down" in all of the other stories when in reality, none of them prove if Waltz had a mine or not. Even if all of the stories surrounding the legend are false, that doesnt mean i cant find it by studying the "basics".

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Travis,

I take no credit for the pictures.

It comes from the Bark Notes.

I don't believe any of those stories mean that Jacob Waltz had a mine. Even Jacob Waltz's story does not close the debate as to if he actually had a mine or not.

No, I don't believe that story alone would be enough to convince me.

"My point to this is, I havent done enough research, or do I care to right now, on all of the other "stuff" that surrounds this Legend. I have only picked up what I know so far from the few books I have purchased up to this point. I realize why you ask questions and appreciate the fact that people like you have learned that some of the "stuff" surrounding the Lost Dutchman is simply not true."

I would liken that to an inexperienced man getting ready to fight a great battle. He walks into an arsenal and picks up the first weapon he finds. It turns out to be a handgun, but he feels that's all he needs. He turns his back on the other weapons that are available to him, and walks out.

In combat, a handgun is, hopefully, only used to fight your way back to your battle rifle.....or something better. You seem to be passing up the better weapons.......evidence.

Your methodology may work out fine, but I don't believe you are the first Dutch Hunter to take that path. On the other hand, you may just be better than all the rest.

Good luck

Joe

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Thank you Gentlemen for being so Kind,

I stand corrected, it is Apache Junction.

I read the thread on the two Soldiers: Soldiers as in Scout's ! When they crossed the Salt to higher ground, does anyone think they may be looking behind them to see who's following. Ten days provisions ! Don't let anyone know what you are doing ! Why they were killed. 1) you take one out, the other may open up. Where the body was found, obviously they were followed and lead the followers away from Red Mountain. Second Soldier lead them out of that area where confronted, forced or otherwise. Because no one has record of the second ever being found.

Massacre Area: Two prospectors found gold on the surface of the box canyon where the Massacre was reported to have happened. Evidence of pack animals and packs from years past.

No one has Explained their theory as to why the arroyo leading away from Red Mountain has had tons of dirt removed from the banks. Would anyone care to look ? You can use google earth ! Would anyone care to expound how else this could have happened other than my previous post? Or why ?

Read 101 clues on another post: If you will give yourselves the time to look at where I am talking about, half of those clues fit. So I hear half of what you read is a fallacy anyway. The funnel is there, most every major landmark is right there, and a map that fits, and a few that are close.

Look at the placement of Tortilla Flats to Red Mountain. Fairly easy for Waltz to get there in a short time. I believe Waltz went out by day leading any followers away, as surly they did, but traveled by night so no one could really follow him. How do you think he survived all those years. Some theories lead to Jacob Waltz as a Killer. He always had some gold, never too much. Unscrupulous people followed him, they followed everyone else, why not Him. He would have to take anyone out that found his ORO. Nobody ever lived to say that they followed him to his mine, and obviously he went there several times thru the years. Many never came back in Waltz's day.

Peralta's only survivor: How do you think he got out ! He went up and over the top side of Red Mountain. I believe he cut loose oro bags on his escape over the top. There are so many well defined paths upon the upper side leading to and from the box canyon. Some people have spent a lot of time passing over the top for no Good Reason ?

Lastly, the State of Arizona has halted any mineral claims a while back. And nothing can be moved within the Superstition's as to dig, excavate even with a hand shovel.......J

 

[wwjohnson]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

JackH

maybe you know allready but John V. Ramses wrote a great book back about 1999 with the title, Quest for Peralta Gold a hidden history of Red mountain.He spent somewhere of 10 years searching and photoing the mountain and the mining history and sites there. If you haven't seen it you should pick up a copy its a great read and some interesting points and theorys he makes a good case for the dutchman mine being at Red mountain. I cant say I buy Red mountain as the sight of the LDM but since no one else has found it i sure cant rule it out.

oroblanco

its true no one can hike around the Red mountain now but it wasnt all that long ago that you could. Only about the time the Fort Mcdowell Yavapai tribe started to build the Fort Mcdowell casino did they crack down and shut the area off. Its always been Salt River-Yavapai land but Red mountain or Mount Mcdowell as the Yavapai call it sits only a few hundred yards from the reservation boarder and people used to park in Fountain hills and walk the short distance over to the mountain it only takes a few minutes. today they patrol that whole border along the bee line hiway down to the casino so nobody can cross the fence anymore.

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Welcome JackH

 

[wwjohnson]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

JackH

im not sure what arroyos you are talking about without seeing them on a map or a photo but to answer your first question yes some of those arroys do have evidence of mineing and excavation and there is several mine tunnels and shafts all around and on Red mountains so there must of been mining there at some times or another. John Ramses has photos and talks about some of those mines and xcavations in his book. the whole area is a mess of arroyos and fractures going every direction away from the mountain . If you are at liberty to post the location of the arroyo it would help but understand if you cant.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Travis,

These are a few of the thousands of pictures I have taken in the Superstitions. The last one is from the end of the Stone Map Trail. It's a picture of a large mineral deposit which is located in the middle of the triangle (I have pictures of that as well) and pegged a Whites void detector, set to detect large bodies of metal. You have to get down on your hands and knees to reach it, with catclaw ripping at you the whole way. Doubt you will ever see it, as you have to get off your tall horse to get there.

I receive hundreds of pictures from other Dutch Hunters, including hearts.

Finding a heart in the Supe's is no big deal. There are thousands of them. Finding one at the exact end of the Stone Map Trail means a little more than randomly riding along some trail and spoting a heart shape.

Now we are done.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Travis,

Well......almost done.

"....he thought he could show them the trail over the mountain, looking from the house; and they must wear their oldest clothes because the brush was bad."

Is that in your "notes"? If not, it probably should be.

Now we're done.

Joe

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Gentlemen,

1) Es Carbadia is the rock pin placement left of photo. "Es Carbadia" was altered after an earthquake. Another photo will show where the other pieces fell.

2) Just right of center is your "Funnel"

3) "Arroyo" where dirt has been removed. If this arroyo was worked (mined) where did the spoil go ? It was carried away for a purpose, not mined !

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Gentlemen,

1) The American Australian believed something was covered up below Es Carbadia. The dirt is unnaturally placed there. You can see the pieces that once formed the larger rock, lying at the bottom of the slope.

2) It appears that under the Red Mountain wall where there are cavities, the same thought process of carring dirt to cover something or change its appearance. The dirt appears to have been carried well under the natural fall of debris.

3) The Arroyo you can clearly see, has dirt taken from it's banks in an up hill direction. It also appears that the dirt removed has been concentrated in certain areas of the arroyo to necessitate the least distance moved.

4) "Heart" area could be seen on the high wall of Red Mountain to the left of the photo. I will search for a photo (google earth) taken a couple of years ago, that perfectly defines the "Heart" which is maybe a hundred feet high.

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Gentlemen,

Es Carbadia in a better view. Gives way to the extraordinary amount of dirt placed below it unnaturally. As well as under the rock face of Red Mountain.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Good morning from snowyTucson. I am only here for two days, VA check up appt. This thread is quite interesting, but I must point out two potential errors so far--->

A ) That is NOT an arrastre in the picture. Exactly just what it's function was, I cannot say without examining it closer, but it was not an arratre..

B) Apparently the author is not acquainted with the south west drainage systems and the extent that a single large storm can change the landscape overnight. A hurricane or a huge nimbus can fill a normally dry arroyo with a 10 - 15 ft run off. Believe me, that can do fantastic things to a land scape, especially in the larger arroyos or drainage systems.

On every picture of supposed human work, I can trace a drainage system to that spot. In other words, while my initials are 'JC" I have been wrong before, all suggested earth movements were the work of Mother nature, not man.

Don Jose de La Mancha