Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

[EE THr]

Travis---

I forgot that Jack had originated that other thread. Sorry, Jack.

Just to make things easier to reference, I'll put the gist of the previous posts from the other thread here (the quote date can be right-clicked on to open the entire post in a new tab)---

Travis---

If you ever need to know how long it takes for a person's eyes to un-cross after studying hand drawn maps for a couple hours at at time, just ask me. I now have solid data on that. Jeeez, I need to take a walk!

Any way, I had an idea which quadrant of the Supers, that most of the maps which made any sense at all, were indicating. And that was the Northeast area. But today I started noticing that some of the maps which didn't seem to really show much, and even some which didn't seem to make any sense, or agree in any way with any other maps; started to make sense! Or maybe I just need some sleep.

It goes like this. Some of the maps that just don't look like much, are, within the boundaries of logic, actually showing the same thing as several of the others which appear to be more specific in their depictions. The key point is, how many ways do different people have of showing the same geologic formations? I'm now thinking it's a whole lot of different ways!

For one thing, there seems to be more people with spatial representation difficulties than I thought. I don't know if it qualifies as full blown dyslexia, but many people do tend to put an object in a drawing on the wrong side of another object. I think it has to do with the left-right confusion of, "is it on your left or my left?" kind of thing. When a person draws something from a different viewing angle, people tend to get mixed up in transposing left for right, when necessary. I've seen people do that, and not even notice that they reversed them in the drawing.

So now, I'm trying to sort out the ones that are the same, then the similars, then the "probably means the same" ones. While trying not to just imagine things just to prove a particular point.

Of course, the whole map thing falls under the category of "legends." So any conclusions would merely be "a coincidence of legends." Which doesn't necessarily mean much.

But if all the maps came from the same original source, like lots of the Waltz stories may have, then why would they have such dissimilar ways of depicting the same information? Although some of them are very similar, too.

Travis---

What is your theory about what kind of "miner" would look there?

EE,

Which "two sets" of stories are you referring to?

The "two sets" of stories and maps, are first the ones that talk about marks and stones on cacti, and so-many paces in one direction, then so-many in another, and corrals, and stuff like that. These tend to indicate a spot in the area of Weaver's Needle. Lots of people have searched there, even some big names.

The second set of stories and maps don't mention any of that stuff, but involve the Four Peaks, seeing a tall needle in a southerly direction from the Peaks, the pit and tunnel with the cave house/church across the creekbed, the setting sun shining into the pit, and stuff like that. These all indicate the Northeast quadrant of the Supers.

One clue that always interested me was - Waltz sitting on a rock in Tortilla Creak when he confronted the dude trying to follow him...

And that would be in the Northeast quadrant....




So, what is your theory about what kind of "miner" would look there?

 

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[Dirty Dutchman]

EE,

These are just my opinions based on my own research.

Supposedly, and i believe, that the Mexicans mined in the Superstition Mountains. Therefore, i only put stock in the maps that are said to have "Mexican origins". I dont believe in any map from a "modern source". Im sure some of the maps we have available could have been translated to English and we arent seeing the original, but i am personally not willing to put much stock into those.

I realize that some of the Mexican maps may also be "fakes", but i dont believe they all are.

It is still up to the searcher to "follow" those to the correct "spot" and also, more importantly, START in the correct spot. I personally didnt even look at the maps until i had followed the "clues" to where i believed they lead. After that, i started to notice that a few maps actually were "real", and i believe they lead to my area.

I have my own opinion about why Waltz was in the "Northeast Quadrant" when Dick followed him. I believe Waltz knew someone was following him and intentionally mislead him there. That is why he was sitting with his gun waiting for him. Being a horseman, it is also hard for me to believe that Waltz had stayed at Hidden Water, left in the morning, then was going to make a camp at Tortilla Creek where Holmes saw him sitting on the rock. The reason i dont believe Waltz was making a camp is because it would only take you about 5 hours at the most to reach Tortilla creek from Hidden Water. If Waltz stopped there, it was for another reason other than making a camp. Maybe because he KNEW he was being followed and was intentionally misleading someone?

On the other hand, Dick started out in the Northeast Quadrant so, maybe he knew something we dont? Maybe Waltz was still on his trail?

Thanks,
Travis

 

[EE THr]

Off the top of my head, I think some of the stories had Waltz entering the Supes from the West, and others said he went in from Tortilla Flats area.

Tortilla Creek originates in the Tortilla Flats area. I think Waltz was waiting for a follower there, not making camp or going directly to his mine.


Not all the maps I linked to are translated into English. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean much.

But whoever originated the maps, didn't just make them up while sitting at his desk in town, either. Whoever made them had to have been there, because there are too many actual landmarks, and other things which have been seen and reported here on the forum. That means either they are at least close, or someone who was there wanted to throw people off while selling phony maps. If some of the maps are from different original sources, it would be quite a coincidence that they originated the same phony locations....

In addition to that, the area indicated by several of the differently drawn maps, do coincide with certain stories, either of written step-by-step directions to it; or by the written descriptions of certain features around the site, and also certain views from the site.

I think it's a matter of the earliest information, and corroboration from early different sources so as to not fall into the "tall tales" which have been said to all originate from the same source.

These tall tales seem to be of a different slant than the maps, though. If they were not, then all the maps would look the same. The problem with maps, is that they can be altered in copies, for the purpose of selling them to those with gold fever which overpowers their rationality.

I think the timeline of both the stories and the maps are important, for these reasons.




So, are you ever going to tell your theory about, "what kind of 'miner' would look there"?

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

EE,

I honestly forgot that you posted a link to more and only looked over the ones that were on the other post. I will check out the link tonight and see what the rest of them are about.

If you look close at what i wrote, i did answer your question. (I'm not "toying" with you, i really did)

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
I had intended to simply post a 'tag' type of message, so I could follow the discussion more easily (yes I am that lazy) but I would like to add another factor.

The route taken by Waltz is likely to be several different ways, rather than one route that goes to his mine. I say this because as has been posted, he was trailed by Holmes via the northern route (or NW); yet in Waltz's story he tells of the incident in which his partner was killed, while Waltz was away from the camp purchasing supplies to replace what the mule had ruined. Waltz went to Adams mill, which is not far from Florence. The Weiser story as we get it from Dr Walker, likewise has Waltz getting his supplies at Adams mill, so there must have been a good reason why he went there rather than to Phoenix which ought to be closer if the mine is located in that NW part of the Superstitions. Also we should note the direction taken by Weiser in his flight away from the Indian ambush at the mine; he ended up at the Pima settlements on the Gila river, not that far (as the crow flies) from Adams Mill, and again there must have been good reason why he ended up there, rather than at Ft McDowell or Phoenix or Picket Post etc. I am convinced that Waltz knew more than one way to get to and from the mine, and used different routes as one way of avoiding being trailed or of creating a clear trail from using it too much.

Please do continue amigos, it has been an interesting discussion in the several threads.
Oroblanco

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

EE and Oro,

EE I agree that a lot of the maps have landmarks that only someone who had been in the area could have drawn. WHEN they were there, is the hard part to figure out.

Like i said before, this was my main reason for concentrating on the directions first, clues second, then i went to the maps to see if any would fit my location. There were a few maps, and also some "directions" (Not from Waltz) that matched up.

When i started with the maps, i left my mind open that the MAP could have been very old, but the information or clues could have been more "modern". If the maps were old, and someone "found" (received from a family, etc.) them, then that person could have added his own interpretation to it, and that could have influenced the story of it. I try to avoid this by first seeing if a map will "fit" in my location. Then see if the "clues" that go with it match also.

Oro,
You and i have discussed this before and i agree that Waltz could have had several ways to get to his mine, as well as several ways to leave.

I disagree and think Waltz basically took the same route to get to it. Before i explain this, i am a firm believer in PARTS of the Holmes manuscript and also the Petrasch/Thomas clues from Corbins Bible. I have debated their authenticity before and do not wish to do that anymore. I believe what i believe because of what i have SEEN, and dont want/need to convince anyone else that they have merit.

That being said, I believe Waltz took the same route because of him telling Holmes where he had made his last few trips ("by way of....) That to me was a "tell" that he took the same route "in" most or all of the time. Now, bring in the Petrasch/Thomas clues and, to me, is explaining the same "route", but with more details. (Because Waltz had more time to tell Petrasch/Thomas, he was dying when he told Holmes)

Now, the "tell" on how he LEAVES the mine can be found in the Petrasch/Thomas clues. "Never come back (to town) by the way you came (in)"

Waltz was obviously smart enough to keep his mine hidden for a long time while he was alive. Here is why i believe Waltz was "spotted" all over the mountains. I think that sometimes when he left the mine, he went to the South to go to a town that wasnt where he lived to buy supplies. If i wanted to hide the fact that i had a rich mine, i would do all of my "big shopping" or money conversion in another town. I would not do it in the town i lived in so that suspicions wouldnt be raised. Heck, maybe he just wanted to "tie one on" after he took out some gold and didnt want to do it in Phoenix?

I think when he left the mine and was "seen" to the North, those were the times that he didnt need to purchase anything and just came back home. Along with that, say he had left his mine (by a different route than he had come in) and ended up being seen in the Tortilla Creek area. That would mean he is heading at least PART of the way that he came in. Meaning from Tortilla Creek, you go to Hidden Water, then to the Fort, etc until he was home.

These are the main reasons I dont doubt the Petrasch/Thomas clues. In Corbins Bible, Waltz told them to go in from the North. Holmes said he followed Waltz to the North. Waltz was seen by others in the North, both coming and going. To me, its pretty safe to say that Waltz probably went in from the North.

This has been long-winded so i apologize.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Loke]

*chuckles* oh - we go around and around and around and ...
I have also wondered why Florence (well, Adams Mill) seemed to be the 'choice' place for supplies etc. Remember the carpenter that made his dry-washer?
On more or less the same note - how sure are we about Weiser?
I have seen good evidence both for and against him. And if he was real and ended up at Dr. Walker, he must have passed at least one friendly pima-village on the way.
You would think a man as badly mauled as he was would have stopped at the first place of habitation ...

Oh, how to seperate the wheat from the chaff when there's ever so much more of the latter ...

 

[Loke]

Travis,
what you said while I posted makes sense - about the reason for getting supplies from Florence ...

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hello,

I forgot to ad my two cents about the Adams Mill and Weiser.

This one should be easy to anyone who believes the Weiser story, like i do.

Where were Waltz and Weiser coming and going from when they were mining together?......wait for it.........Mexico. That is why they probably were doing their "shopping" at Adams Mill. That and the other reason i posted about not drawing attention to themselves by their purchases.

Weiser was delirious by his own admition, that could explain why he passed another Indian camp, he simply didnt see it. Remember, the Pimas found HIM, he didnt find THEM.

(Hi Loke!)

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello,

I forgot to ad my two cents about the Adams Mill and Weiser.

This one should be easy to anyone who believes the Weiser story, like i do.

Where were Waltz and Weiser coming and going from when they were mining together?......wait for it.........Mexico. That is why they probably were doing their "shopping" at Adams Mill. That and the other reason i posted about not drawing attention to themselves by their purchases.

Weiser was delirious by his own admition, that could explain why he passed another Indian camp, he simply didnt see it. Remember, the Pimas found HIM, he didnt find THEM.

(Hi Loke!)

Thanks,
Travis

Then wouldn't the LDM mine be located in Mexico? Considering the story appears in both Holmes and Thomas/Petrasch versions as well as Dr Walker's, unless you are saying they had a different mine in Mexico before the LDM in the Superstitions? Please clarify, thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

C'mon Oro my man, are you going to make me explain it all?

Waltz version:

Paraphrasing
"He and his partner were prospecting in the 60's in the state of Sonora, MEXICO..."
"They came to a ranch..."
They came up from Mexico to mine it. Took the money back to Peralta, he wanted to keep ALL of the money. They agreed, took the deed, blah, blah, blah........

Weiser version:
"We went to the mine FIRST with the MEXICAN owner....(probably from Mexico?)
"We took out about 60k, he wanted to keep it, blah, blah, blah......

When THEY mined it, they were going to and from Mexico. Prospecting in Mexico first, up with Peralta (or his "boys") to the Superstitions, then back to Mexico with 60k, then back to the Superstitions on their own. Which is the time that Weiser was attacked. They had re-supplied at Adams Mill while they were coming from Mexico after giving Peralta ALL of the money from the first trip.

So, no i dont believe the Lost Dutchman mine should be in Mexico.

Thanks,
Travis

Forgot your...

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

And Oro, I meant I forgot your coffee, not YOU forgot your coffee...Just to clarify

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias compadre Travis, we very nearly had a major disaster here when the coffeepot ran DRY a few moments ago! <horrors!>

Thank you for clarifying, I was getting a mistaken impression. I take it then that your view is based in part on this portion of the Holmes manuscript:

"My last few trips were made by way of the Salt river, traveling up to Monroy's ranch and taking one of the old Government trails which crossed the river at that point and then into the Superstitions."

<from The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Dr Glover, pp 58>
I also assume that you do not accept the story we get from Dr Walker, which has Weiser attacked while at the mine or very near it, don't have the book at hand but remember Waltz did say he found his partner's bloody shirt at the mine. This would indicate the ambush happened at or very near the mine, not on the route from Mexico, correct? So I have to respectfully disagree on this point.

Roy

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Oro,

That is what im referring to.

This is why i hate computers I was not trying to say Weiser was attacked anywhere but near the mine.
I was trying to give some reasons Waltz was seen around the South. (Even after Weiser died/ The "shopping") He and Weiser were shopping at Adams Mill because they had been going back and forth to Mexico.

And, i was also explaining why i think Waltz came in from the North.

I'm not sure if you saw Joe and i's discussion about the Bark notes in reguards to the Weiser story. Bark is the one who writes about the bloody shirt and "bullet shot" frying pans, not the Walker story. I dont buy the Bark version for one second. Why? The Walker story says that Weiser was shot........by ARROWS, not bullets.

In my opinion Weiser was 100% attacked at or near the mine. No bloody shirt left, but attacked none the less.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Oro,

Did you miss a post of mine earlier? I explained why i believe the Weiser story and all of that? I was reading it back to see if i was clear and i was just wondering if you missed that "long-winded" one i wrote. That might clarify what i am getting at.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo,
I miss a lot, it is a fun part of the aging process! Forgetting things is another part, but that is a whole 'nother subject.

Not trying to 'trip you up' on Weiser, just wanted to get your views on this straight. I did follow the discussion of Bark's notes, which were never intended for publication, but this is not the only source for the bloody shirt and frying pan with "bullet holes". The bullet holes may well have not been made by bullets for one thing, Apaches and other Indians were known to 'kill' objects by punching holes in them, quite possibly driving a pick into it. Indians could also be quite wasteful of ammunition, which was a point that Bark wrote he didn't buy; plus can we say with any certainty that the Indians did not have a mix of weapons? Even at the famous Little Bighorn battle, some of the warriors had good rifles, some had nothing more than bows and arrows. Indians of the southwest had been obtaining firearms since the 1600's so I could not say that no firearm could have been involved.
Roy

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hola amigo,
I miss a lot, it is a fun part of the aging process! Forgetting things is another part, but that is a whole 'nother subject.

Not trying to 'trip you up' on Weiser, just wanted to get your views on this straight. I did follow the discussion of Bark's notes, which were never intended for publication, but this is not the only source for the bloody shirt and frying pan with "bullet holes". The bullet holes may well have not been made by bullets for one thing, Apaches and other Indians were known to 'kill' objects by punching holes in them, quite possibly driving a pick into it. Indians could also be quite wasteful of ammunition, which was a point that Bark wrote he didn't buy; plus can we say with any certainty that the Indians did not have a mix of weapons? Even at the famous Little Bighorn battle, some of the warriors had good rifles, some had nothing more than bows and arrows. Indians of the southwest had been obtaining firearms since the 1600's so I could not say that no firearm could have been involved.
Roy

Oro,
While i agree the Indians could have "poked" holes or used other weapons, this doesnt seem logical for someone that seems to believe the Weiser story. I assume since you talk about it that you do believe that story?

When Weiser is telling his story, he says that he was keeping the Indians away using his rifle (while he was fleeing). They were afraid to get close. His horse was brought down finally by their arrows. No gun is mentioned. I believe they were afraid to get close because they didnt have guns. Again, just my opinion on what ive read.

I probably dont know as much about Indian history as you do, but i cant find a "gun" story in the Weiser/Walker part (other than Weisers), so i'm going to stick with what i said earlier.

Thanks,
Travis
(I'm out for the night!)

 

[Oroblanco]

Dirty Dutchman wrote

Oro,
While i agree the Indians could have "poked" holes or used other weapons, this doesnt seem logical for someone that seems to believe the Weiser story. I assume since you talk about it that you do believe that story?

When Weiser is telling his story, he says that he was keeping the Indians away using his rifle (while he was fleeing). They were afraid to get close. His horse was brought down finally by their arrows. No gun is mentioned. I believe they were afraid to get close because they didnt have guns. Again, just my opinion on what ive read.

I probably dont know as much about Indian history as you do, but i cant find a "gun" story in the Weiser/Walker part (other than Weisers), so i'm going to stick with what i said earlier.

Thanks,
Travis
(I'm out for the night!)

Yes I do accept the Weiser story, in large part because of my opinion of Dr Walker. As owner of the famous Vekol mine he had no need to go risk life and limb to hunt for it, plus his record of fighting the Apaches left a rather large target on his head for the rest of his life.

I am not saying that there must have been firearms in the hands of the Indians attacking Weiser, only that any holes found in a frying pan may have been the result of a firearm or possibly just poked through. Perhaps the victorious warriors obtained a firearm from Weiser's own camp? We can't really say. Perhaps they recovered Weiser's own rifle, which he left at the water hole in his flight. I would not say that the Indians must have been Apaches for that matter, they may as easily have been Yavapais or even Navajos, depending on what year the attack happened.

The bloody shirt and frying pan are not in the Weiser story we get from Dr Walker, which is only logical as he fled the scene of the attack. As for the reason why the Indians were hesitant to close the distance with Weiser, the fact that they stayed back really only indicates their respect for the rifle he was using, it doesn't tell us what sort of weapons they were using themselves. It may be an indicator of the ID of the Indians involved however, which may point to a different tribe than the Apaches as is usually assumed by most.

Good night Travis, I look forward to your replies.
Oroblanco

 

[motell6]

I would like to add my 2 centovos to this thread, after Walz and Wiser shot the 2 working miners{Jacobs&Ludi},Walz turned and shot Wiser, this was at night,and Wiser was able to escape wounded, 2 Pima Indians found him the next day and took him to J.D.Walkers ranch. Before Wiser died he told his story to the rancher,and made him a map to the mine.The Walkers were getting rich from the Veckol mine and were not interested in following the lead.The imformation Wiser gave the rancher that it was a old Spanish worked mine. Barry Storm/thundergods Gold,1945,edition. I believe the holes in the pan were made by nails,to anchor the pan to a flat stone . Wiser was a carptender....

 

[Springfield]

..... Even at the famous Little Bighorn battle, some of the warriors had good rifles, some had nothing more than bows and arrows. ....

Many had brand new repeating rifles, fresh out of the box. Wonder who provided them.