Lode claim on hydraulic mined area

[Asmbandits]

I do not know much about lode claims and the way they work as far a acres goes, I know most I see are 20.66 acres in size. How does this pertain to the surface scar of a hydraulic pit? I see lode claims filed for hydraulic pits but most are 20.66 acer claims and the scars are much larger than this, Is there an easy explanation of how this work out? Also The gold is placer gold so kind of confusing also, would love to hear from someone more knowledgeable on the details of this!

 

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[Goldwasher]

I do not know much about lode claims and the way they work as far a acres goes, I know most I see are 20.66 acres in size. How does this pertain to the surface scar of a hydraulic pit? I see lode claims filed for hydraulic pits but most are 20.66 acer claims and the scars are much larger than this, Is there an easy explanation of how this work out? Also The gold is placer gold so kind of confusing also, would love to hear from someone more knowledgeable on the details of this!

A lode claim is made (should be) with the lode line being the center line. With a measurement from center to side.

And a overall measurement along the strike of the lode. max size is 20.66. A lot of older ones are smaller.

lode claims require a discovery monument and corners. The strike "compass direction " of the lode/vein is given. And a metes and bound description from corner to corner.

if they found a vein and wanted to claim it so be it.

If they filed a lode in a placer area..because they didn't know what they are doing..so be it..theres no way a junior can prove otherwise on the ground. since you can't prospect it .basically having to assume it is a valid claim.

Our new claims are placer because we are finding gold eroded from the veins. There are a lot of veins. Our placer claims give us rights to the loose gold and vein gold. so, its just easier to locate that way.

the more you research. the more you understand about claims and locating. the more you will see claims that are not filed right, plotted right or located properly in regards to what the law actually requires.

unfortunately you will need a judge to clear up stuff like that.

Only real option is to keep your eye on good areas year after year. Hoping such claims are abandoned or invalidated.

 

[Asmbandits]

A lode claim is made (should be) with the lode line being the center line. With a measurement from center to side.

And a overall measurement along the strike of the lode. max size is 20.66. A lot of older ones are smaller.

lode claims require a discovery monument and corners. The strike "compass direction " of the lode/vein is given. And a metes and bound description from corner to corner.

if they found a vein and wanted to claim it so be it.

If they filed a lode in a placer area..because they didn't know what they are doing..so be it..theres no way a junior can prove otherwise on the ground. since you can't prospect it .basically having to assume it is a valid claim.

Our new claims are placer because we are finding gold eroded from the veins. There are a lot of veins. Our placer claims give us rights to the loose gold and vein gold. so, its just easier to locate that way.

the more you research. the more you understand about claims and locating. the more you will see claims that are not filed right, plotted right or located properly in regards to what the law actually requires.

unfortunately you will need a judge to clear up stuff like that.

Only real option is to keep your eye on good areas year after year. Hoping such claims are abandoned or invalidated.

So it sounds like possiblethe lode filling is not the correct filling for the area? The hydro scar is about 5 times the size of 20.66 and the "lode" is placer gold scattered through the entire scar. At one time there was a volcanic cap covering the workings but this has been gone since 1890.. There is a drift mine under the scar I've head, is it possible the claim is for the drift and he just assumes the surface minerals as well?

 

[Goldwasher]

So it sounds like possiblethe lode filling is not the correct filling for the area? The hydro scar is about 5 times the size of 20.66 and the "lode" is placer gold scattered through the entire scar. At one time there was a volcanic cap covering the workings but this has been gone since 1890.. There is a drift mine under the scar I've head, is it possible the claim is for the drift and he just assumes the surface minerals as well?

They can "think" they found a lode file and it would still have to be invalidated in court. They probably made a valid discovery of gold since it is present.

Even if the whole place is gravel. If it's filed it's legal until challenged. just the way it is.

Unfortunately they could have paper filed and your still in the same boat.

I believe a judge would allow them to amend their location . Before invalidating it. If they can prove a discovery.

If there is a lode or not the claim assumes the mineral rights for him/her/they. The type of claim doesn't restrict the miner. Placer gets lode...lode gets placer.

A "gold" claim doesn't stop you from developing other mineral resources on that claim.silver, copper, zinc, quartz crystals.

If it's good ground i guess just look close by for more. Your good at it.

If it is the only claim in a spot and mucking it up if you want to claim some of the area you can.

If its a flipper claim it's either court or wait it out.

 

[Asmbandits]

I am really am just trying to detect on some of the open pit, the thing is I don't attest his ownership of minerals, its just the manner in which it was claimed and what is his. The pit is about 80 acres of land but his lode claim is only 20.66. The way he filed for the given working type really confuses me as to what he can legally say is his under that lode claim as far as boundaries go. As far as I have seen his signs are up all over the entirety of the pit.

 

[Clay Diggins]

So it sounds like possiblethe lode filling is not the correct filling for the area? The hydro scar is about 5 times the size of 20.66 and the "lode" is placer gold scattered through the entire scar. At one time there was a volcanic cap covering the workings but this has been gone since 1890.. There is a drift mine under the scar I've head, is it possible the claim is for the drift and he just assumes the surface minerals as well?

Most of the ancient subsurface placer deposits were properly located as lodes. Drift mines and much hydraulic work was carried out underground in consolidated material. Placer claims are for unconsolidated surface deposits. The fact that the original gold deposit was alluvial doesn't matter if the deposit was covered and consolidated over eons.

The proper way to locate a claim over tailings is by placer. Not knowing the deposit type or what the mining intent of the locator was I can't really determine which type of claim was proper. It doesn't really matter because whether the claim is placer or lode the claimant still owns all the valuable minerals within the location. Lode claimants own the associated placer material and placer claimants own any lodes found within their location.

You could try to argue that the claim type is not supported by the deposit type but to do that you would have to have first hand knowledge of the existing deposit. You can only do that with the permission of the claim owner.

If you were able to get permission to prospect the claim and you discovered there was no lode (ever try to prove a negative?) you would have to sue the claim owner to have their claim voided. Suing to void a claim to your advantage based on paper errors (type of claim) is known as claim jumping. Claim jumping is frowned on by the courts, your odds of winning such a case are really small. Not only that it would be really bad manners to sue the claim owner who gave you permission to prospect their claim, in my opinion.

Goldwasher is right. Lode claims are located by metes and bounds (distance and direction). There is no exemption for staking as there is for placer locations in some states. Lode claims can not be located by aliquot part.

The centerline of a lode claim follows the assumed direction of the strike. Lode claims are a maximum of 600 feet (300 foot on either side of the centerline) by 1500 feet (along the strike) that adds up to 20.66 acres. Lode claims can be smaller but the maximum dimensions still apply and the minimum dimension of the end line is 25 foot per side (50 foot width total). Lode claims require a minimum of 5 stakes - 4 corners and the discovery point monument. Some states require two end line center stakes as well so in those states lode claims will have a minimum of 7 stakes.

The vast majority of mining claims in the U.S. are lode claims (about 85%). They are located differently from placer claims but that in itself should not be suspicious. Try getting a copy of the location notice(s) for the lodes there and see just where they are located. You might have an opportunity to work around the existing claims and get some gold.

Heavy Pans

 

[Goldwasher]

I was gonna say get a map if you can.. look at his notice.

If you need help sorting it out or verifying what is still open. you know I will help you.

 

[Asmbandits]

Got it thanks for the input guys! It seems to me like if he filled properly via a 22.66 acre lode there has got to be no way possible the entire hydro scar is claimed given the claim size vs scar size so possibly he is trying to bite off more than is technically his with the signs.. Looks like I need to get a hold of his lead map and have a look.

 

[bug]

Yep look it up and keep a copy of it on you when out there. Sounds like he is trying to bluff the casual prospector that strays into the area.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Also if the lode claim owner is bold enough to piss on all the trees surrounding the pit...they may have possession for all practicable purposes. Unless of course you want to push the issue, which can come with all kinds of additional headache.

Best bet would be to research and map his/her claim, then approach them with the map in an honest manner hoping to get them to show you their monuments so you don't accidentally trespass. You might get somewhere.

 

[Goldwasher]

Also if the lode claim owner is bold enough to piss on all the trees surrounding the pit...they may have possession for all practicable purposes. Unless of course you want to push the issue, which can come with all kinds of additional headache.

Best bet would be to research and map his/her claim, then approach them with the map in an honest manner hoping to get them to show you their monuments so you don't accidentally trespass. You might get somewhere.

It just doesn't work that way..Considering what the word "claim" means.

You claim what you state on your location notice. You only have legal claim to that...not some fuzzy grey area around it too.

 

[N-Lionberger]

So if you have a placer claim you have claim to the minerals in vein? If so is a lode claim filed on top of a pre existing placer claim legit? In order to prospect to make a lode discovery you would be highgrading the pre existing placer claim?

 

[Goldwasher]

So if you have a placer claim you have claim to the minerals in vein? If so is a lode claim filed on top of a pre existing placer claim legit? In order to prospect to make a lode discovery you would be highgrading the pre existing placer claim?

You can't make a lode discovery on a placer claim unless you have permission from the placer claim owner.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

It just doesn't work that way..Considering what the word "claim" means.

You claim what you state on your location notice. You only have legal claim to that...not some fuzzy grey area around it too.

It's not a black and white world.
I think we all understand claims have limited defined bounds.

If I was confident it would be worth my time, I'd pursue it. Otherwise I'm avoiding disputes with aggressive ignorant people. Easier to wander around some place else regardless of right/wrong.

 

[Asmbandits]

It just doesn't work that way..Considering what the word "claim" means.

You claim what you state on your location notice. You only have legal claim to that...not some fuzzy grey area around it too.

The realty is it is very common for people to say or do one thing, yet they are actually entitled to something different.. I'd rather just do what I'm legally entitled to do once I understand what he is actually legally entitled to. These types of confrontations are not fun and boundaries are always exaggerated..Its best to have the facts in writing with you and avoid confrontation if possible. You spend enough time in the field dealing with these situations and you will see what works best over time. I have had many shouting matches but usually once they see I'm filming everything the truth slowly starts to come out..

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Maybe do some hiking and try to flag up their corners.

I once discovered a missing drain plug on my 4x4 transfer case.
Always wondered if it was the result of someone not getting mad - just even.
Didn't get noticed for months and was very expensive!! Kind of made me rethink confronting people.

 

[Goldwasher]

I'm not saying to confront anyone.

I don't see how verifying actual claim location and working around it is causing a confrontation.

I'm not gonna use signs that our outside of an actual claim stop me from prospecting legally open ground. That I have verified against county recording.

Putting signs in the wrong place on purpose or accident. Does mean you should make sure. Before prospecting. not that you should avoid the are entirely.

 

[seafox]

while each claim is limited to 600 by 1500 I have seen multiple claims next to each other to cover a bigger area. could the guy have miltiple lode claims that cover the whole 80 acre hydro scar( like the word " mined" better than scar.) area?