Long shot, anybody know trade knives?

[Older The Better]

I just found this today at a site I’ve dated to the 1830’s there is no modern contamination, in Kansas, blah blah you regulars have heard it before... I’m pretty confident it’s a trade knife. Any chance anyone can tell me anymore based on the shape?

I’ve found a few similar knives so far



I’ve also found a few brass tacks nearby including one last week

 

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[old digger]

It looks like your first item just might be what was a transitional knife. I am sure many were hand made from pieces of metal that were brought into the ares by settlers. As for your second piece, I believe that it is type of rivet that was used on leather articles. I have one or two somewhere in my collection. It would also be a traditional piece. Nice Finds!

 

[Older The Better]

Def some hand made stuff, like this saw... at least that’s what I think it is. Got the knife soaking in apple cider vinegar should have some better pics in a few weeks.

 

[gunsil]

That "saw" looks like copper flashing that is corroded and no way is it a saw or a handmade anything. I seriously doubt your iron piece is a knife too, there are way too many old pieces of iron it could be from and it looks too thick for a knife blade. Knives were not handmade from pieces of metal by settlers. Knives were brought along by settlers as they went westward, but the knives were nice factory made knives. Blacksmiths did not generally make knives, that is a myth, knives were made by cutlers. Even "trade" knives were factory made in England. No local settlers were making "trade" knives.

 

[Muddyhandz]

Yes, that knife tip could well be from a trade knife and it is common for me to find fragments like that before finding a whole knife.
If the knife broke then the tip could be utilized as a point (arrow head) or in some other way. Nothing was thrown away!

To be honest, I wasn't going to post on this until the previous post claimed that the piece of kettle scrap with the saw edge is no way a saw......

WRONG!

That piece is from a copper kettle and modified into a saw. I have dozens of "saw" pieces from authentic, remote fur trade sites.
I have publications showing the same saw-like pieces with archaeologists identifying the artifacts as utilized kettle scrap "saw" pieces.
I will say that there's no way that this is not a saw made from kettle scrap!
Add a knife tip and a gun tack and there's some fur trade potential at your site. Keep at it!
Cheers,
Dave.

 

[Mackaydon]

I'm more familiar with knife money; like this:

Don......

 

[Older The Better]

I have no doubt it’s a fur trade site, it’s a remote spot in the woods where the only modern trash are shell casings shot shell heads. Here’s some other stuff from the same site.

 

[Terry Soloman]

I've been detecting over 40-years now. For the last 30-years, when I find some random piece of metal as corroded as your find, it goes in the trash. I don't even care about its history as NO ONE can identify it, and it has zero worth. When you find something good, you'll know it.

 

[Slowtaknow]

Looks like it might be a french trade knife, check the bushcraft forums.

 

[Older The Better]

I've been detecting over 40-years now. For the last 30-years, when I find some random piece of metal as corroded as your find, it goes in the trash. I don't even care about its history as NO ONE can identify it, and it has zero worth. When you find something good, you'll know it.

It’s all about the location for me, even though it doesn’t look like much it was useful to someone nearly 200 years ago. It also rounds out the picture of the site, I’ll keep any evidence of a fur trade site I find... now if I found it in a contaminated area like the yard of a house, probably wouldn’t worry as much about it.... I’ll post more pics when I get it clean, the acv soak is coming along nicely.

 

[Older The Better]

Looks like it might be a french trade knife, check the bushcraft forums.

I will have to, I’m fairly confident it’s a knife, I was hoping maybe the shape could give me more info. French would be likely with the Choteaus trading with the locals

 

[gunsil]

I've been detecting over 40-years now. For the last 30-years, when I find some random piece of metal as corroded as your find, it goes in the trash. I don't even care about its history as NO ONE can identify it, and it has zero worth. When you find something good, you'll know it.

Thank you Terry!! I am always a little bashful about saying that although it is certainly true. I am always amazed at what some folks see in an unidentifiable piece of corroded metal. If that piece of copper was made into a "saw" I'd eat my old BFO. Ditto on the "knife". The Native American artifact people also amaze me at what some consider artifacts these days. Did it really take you ten years to discard all the junk? Man, I was throwing away all the rusted iron from the get-go almost fifty years ago. I still toss out all the horseshoes, rusted bridle bits, pocket knives, etc since as you say they are useless and valueless. All modern lead bullets, all round balls, broken lead soldiers and lead scrap go right in the lead pot for future fishing sinkers. When a piece of iron is so far gone there is no reason to postulate on it's origin as all answers would be conjecture, and as most know, conjecture is useless.

 

[Older The Better]

To each his own, I love the old horseshoes and pocketknives, they all contribute to the picture of the history of the land and they have great value to me, I’m not in it for the money anyway. Not to mention the things I would have thrown away before I realized what they were. I had a ramrod holder and nose cap from a trade gun in my scrap pile because when I found them I didn’t know what they were

This guy was a ball of rust but I got it cleaned up and moving again. You may have trashed it and that’s fine but I’m kinda proud of it haha

 

[gunsil]

Your pocket knife was most likely made in Germany 1920s-1930s era. American knife companies did not use steel pins in nickel bolsters like your knife has, it was common on German made knives. The pattern of your knife is called a "stockman" or sometimes a "serpentine stockman" and the pattern is pretty much a 20th century one. I don't mind at all what others collect, but if I collected all the rusted pocket knives, horseshoes, bridle bits, bullets, broken toy cars, etc in my detecting since 1970 I'd have no place to live in my house along with all my real collections of fine antique knives, NA artifacts, art, etc. I do have several smaller boxes of old brass buttons, thimbles, shoe buckles, etc that I have dug over the years, I like those things that are identifiable. Coins and jewelry (treasure) are hoarded. Just storing the artillery shells and ten rusty old dug rifles takes a lot of space and most of them don't have much value to anybody but me. (I sold the valuable shells shortly after finding them, paid for several detectors) (Pic of me in 1974 with fresh dug load of shells, cannister rounds, and rifles is my avatar.)

 

[Older The Better]

Thanks for the info, I found that somewhere else, didn’t mean to be confusing, but yes my house is full haha that’s why the lesser things are flowing out to the barn.

 

[Muddyhandz]

It's amazing how sure people are of themselves...to the point of claiming they'll eat their old BFO detector.
Really? Are you going to do that live in front of T-Net? You think you know so well what you're talking about? Wow.
O.K. so am I supposed to take my decades of fur trade experience and photograph all the "saw pieces" that I've found at remote fur trade sites and the articles in archaeological publications just to prove to some internet stranger that this is indeed a scrap piece of kettle made into a saw?
Sounds like a waste of my time just like this post is already.

This is a fur trade study area. You guys don't like rusty junk and scrap copper pieces then go somewhere else!
Why spend the time and energy to tell the OP that his artifacts are junk and not what he says they are?
This fur trade forum could really be hot if some of us actually participated but what would be the point?
Whipping a dead horse in front of a tough crowd who doesn't give a rat's azz about fur trade artifacts.
A month goes by without a post here and when someone finally does post something this is what happens.

 

[gunsil]

Do you mean it would be hot with bad info?? The copper piece shown by OP is too thin to have been from a kettle. If you don't like what others say you are free to leave. Don't carry on about "fur trade" like you are some sort of special area of detecting. Both Terry and myself hunt areas that had early settlement, some of the earliest settled or explored areas of the new world, many earlier than fur trade era and we do know what we see and find. To tell OP that the iron piece he found is definitely a knife is ridiculous, there is NO way to prove it so and it's dimensions are not correct for a knife. Don't forget that the "fur trade" era was not the earliest era of white encroachment on NA soil, the first settlers were farmers and they came many years before the fur trade began. By the way, I studied anthropology and archaeology at University of Oklahoma fifty some years ago and do keep up on real archaeological finds from all over the world. NO scientist would EVER call that iron piece a knife but I am sure there are amateurs who would.

 

[Older The Better]

I go to this site a lot of times to feel out things I’ve found. I would agree that there is no way of telling for sure what it is, but I’m not getting paid for my research, My I’ds have no impact to other people, I try not to claim a definitive id on this site for that reason, I don’t ever intend to sell the items and misrepresent them. So I don’t see the harm in a most likely explanation for the things I find.
I also try to be brief because I’d need my own website to lay out all the research and items that I’ve found from that spot. All I can ask is for trust when I say a site is clean that I know what I’m talking about. I’ve got a degree in archaeology/anthropology too and detect weekly. I’ve got a good grasp on trash areas and flashing and things like that.

I said knife due to the other items in the immediate area including other cooking items and the shape of it. I have many kettle fragments that make it very possible that the saw is a kettle fragment.
Bottom line I’m fine if you don’t believe me and skepticism is good, not everything is a treasure but I’m not going to argue that particular point because ive been posting here long enough to watch an inquiry devolve into this.
I was just hoping based off the shape of it that it may be identifiable otherwise it will just have to remain a bit of a mystery

 

[Muddyhandz]

Man, I wasn't even going to post but when you came claiming that "Knives were not handmade from pieces of metal by settlers.
Knives were brought along by settlers as they went westward, but the knives were nice factory made knives.
Blacksmiths did not generally make knives, that is a myth, knives were made by cutlers.
Even "trade" knives were factory made in England. No local settlers were making "trade" knives."

I'm not leaving this false information unchallenged.
My friend acquired a trade axe that the Museum of the Fur Trade didn't have and it was on their want list for some time now.
He asked me if I had any items with the maker mark "Boulsover" and I recognized the name. Sure enough, I have a knife and a "wedge axe" with that name.
It turns out that Boulsover was a blacksmith from Minnesota who made and sold trade goods.Not a surprise as several of my post/fort sites had a blacksmith there.
I have many unique knives made from files, barrel strapping, and other scrap pieces that were made by the local blacksmith.
In fact, most sites contain more "homemade" implements than actual imported trade goods. What do expect out in the remote wilderness? Metal was precious.
The copper saw piece is as easy to recognize to me as a jangler or arrow head that is also made from THIN kettle scrap.
When someone digs up THOUSANDS of kettle scrap pieces, it's easy to see a utilized piece.
My colonial sites ARE fur trade sites as there was nothing else out here.
I don't care one bit about your "opinions" as I just want to set the record straight for learning purposes and you're wrong on several counts!

 

[Hardy]

WHAT ? You obviously never dug preform’s and blacksmiths made knives in North America during the fur trade