Military Reservations?

[azprospector]

What's the word on military land?
Is this a no no?

Thanks,

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

reply

What's the word on military land?
Is this a no no?

Thanks,

Is the base a "closed" base or an "open" base? Because ever since 9/11, a lot (or all?) active military bases stepped up security, developed "check-point charlies", and so forth.

Or are you military and can simply be there, on-base, for legit purposes? Or are we talking decommissioned bases no longer in use? (because there was a rash of base closures in recent years of budget bruhahas)

So you need to be more specific.

In my area, we have Ft. Ord, as an example. I used to (and still do) routinely hunt there. Before it was decommissioned, and now too as various parts of it are sitting in stages of abandonment (with cool old barracks still standing, awaiting demolition in the coming years). I never had any problems. But .... then again .... maybe I didn't ask enough people "can I?"

Other bases in my area I also used to hunt, but ..... they're still active bases and got hyped up security after 9/11. But.... that has nothing to do with metal detecting. That's just ANY activity there.

A friend of mine ran into problems at one of the bases near SF (got a ticket). But ..... that ... in my opinion, was an exception. Because that was a historic monument type place (he was chancing it, doh!.) As opposed to other bases that perhaps have no high scrutiny, and no one's likely to care or notice. So, like any park or school or public land, you have to measure the tone of various individual places, activities going on (like obviously, you're not going to go waltzing through PT fields while they're actually in-use-training, etc...)

 

[Follows Camp Craig]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/newattachment.php?do=assetmanager&values[t]=393314&contenttypeid=1&poststarttime=1388462536&posthash=49dab8a98fda6b078b3f044a1da34bdc&insertinline=1

This one landed "that short" so I took it home. (It had my name partially written on it!)
Damn kid stripped off all of the charges and due to the elevation the round traveled less than 100 yards.
I would never attempt this again, a prison sentence awaits anyone who survives and gets caught.

Unless the impact area has been decommissioned long ago, I wouldn't touch it.
EVER!

 

[azprospector]

Okay so this would be Historic Ft. Huachuca. It is an "Open Base", I work there as a Defense Contractor. I am talking about the river beds that are not near any ranges or where any un exploded bombs may be lurking.
You do need a photo ID to enter, but that's pretty much it.

I would like to try some of the areas in the Huachuca's that are on military land, away from houses and all that stuff.

 

[Mackaydon]

Follow Camp Craig:
Careful, you find might to categorized by the current administration as a WMD.

Don....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Okay so this would be Historic Ft. Huachuca. It is an "Open Base", I work there as a Defense Contractor. I am talking about the river beds that are not near any ranges or where any un exploded bombs may be lurking.
You do need a photo ID to enter, but that's pretty much it.

I would like to try some of the areas in the Huachuca's that are on military land, away from houses and all that stuff.

az-prospector, have you looked at the Fort's website?


The United States Army | Fort Huachuca, AZ

and here's a page within it that has some rules:

The United States Army | Fort Huachuca, AZ

I've looked around through the main webpage, and there's hundreds of potential links to wade through. The singular one above with some various rules, is not doubt not comprehensive, but ...... if you start with the main page, and navigate more, you might find base rules. Or probably something just to refer you to something else, like that all laws of the federal government apply (road speed limits, don't murder, steal, etc...), just incorporated by reference. I dunno. But at least there's a place to start to see if there's any "rules" that actually said "no metal detecting".

But I notice that your particular base has some "historic" (the word used on their website) originations. Ie.: indian war fort stuff. But it appears (if I'm reading the history section there), that that area is now under the nucleus of modern buildings and so forth. I did not read too in depth though. However, if you want to be "safe", you can always (just for common sense purposes) stay clear of sensitive historic monument zones. And it sounds like that's what you were going to do anyways, right?

If it were me, I'd race straight to the most historic zones possible, barring any signs or armed gaurds (because I prefer old coins ). But that's just me. But for sure, just as I have at various other bases around CA, hunt elsewhere. Afterall, you're legitimately allowed on base. And I see that they have recreation activities for the general public too there, to be on base.

If the PT fields haven't been hunted, those are often-time good for coins etc... And if you know of where the sand wrestle pits are, there are sometimes gold rings there, d/t the nature of wrestling in sand.

If someone were to .... for some reason ..... be out there in the boondocks, and take issue with your chosen activity ....... then ...... didn't you loose your wedding ring there last week?

 

[azprospector]

az-prospector, have you looked at the Fort's website?


The United States Army | Fort Huachuca, AZ

and here's a page within it that has some rules:

The United States Army | Fort Huachuca, AZ

I've looked around through the main webpage, and there's hundreds of potential links to wade through. The singular one above with some various rules, is not doubt not comprehensive, but ...... if you start with the main page, and navigate more, you might find base rules. Or probably something just to refer you to something else, like that all laws of the federal government apply (road speed limits, don't murder, steal, etc...), just incorporated by reference. I dunno. But at least there's a place to start to see if there's any "rules" that actually said "no metal detecting".

But I notice that your particular base has some "historic" (the word used on their website) originations. Ie.: indian war fort stuff. But it appears (if I'm reading the history section there), that that area is now under the nucleus of modern buildings and so forth. I did not read too in depth though. However, if you want to be "safe", you can always (just for common sense purposes) stay clear of sensitive historic monument zones. And it sounds like that's what you were going to do anyways, right?

If it were me, I'd race straight to the most historic zones possible, barring any signs or armed gaurds (because I prefer old coins ). But that's just me. But for sure, just as I have at various other bases around CA, hunt elsewhere. Afterall, you're legitimately allowed on base. And I see that they have recreation activities for the general public too there, to be on base.

If the PT fields haven't been hunted, those are often-time good for coins etc... And if you know of where the sand wrestle pits are, there are sometimes gold rings there, d/t the nature of wrestling in sand.

If someone were to .... for some reason ..... be out there in the boondocks, and take issue with your chosen activity ....... then ...... didn't you loose your wedding ring there last week?

Tom, thanks for the info, I am just going to stop by the Sportsman Center (they regulate the canyons where I am interested in) for things like hunting, fishing, shooting and that sort of thing.
I am with you though, I like old stuff too. Yes there are some awesome things here on Historic Ft. Huachuca, it is also the home of the legendary "Buffalo Solders" Huachuca Illustrated, vol 1, 1993: Fort Huachuca: The Traditional Home of the Buffalo Soldier

I will update when I find anything out. Thanks for the info.

 

[Follows Camp Craig]

Okay so this would be Historic Ft. Huachuca. It is an "Open Base", I work there as a Defense Contractor. I am talking about the river beds that are not near any ranges or where any un exploded bombs may be lurking.
You do need a photo ID to enter, but that's pretty much it.

I would like to try some of the areas in the Huachuca's that are on military land, away from houses and all that stuff.

You have your C.A.C. card so you should be okay in that sense.
I would still get to know the guys from D.P.W. or Range control just so you can name drop in case the Jedi mind trick doesn't work.
If it's common areas or plain old reservation I would give it a try.

(is your SF-86 up to date ?)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom, thanks for the info, I am just going to stop by the Sportsman Center (they regulate the canyons where I am interested in) for things like hunting, fishing, shooting and that sort of thing.

Az-prospector, if this is an area of the base where hunting, fishing, shooting, camping, etc... are going on for the public, then I bet you dollars to donuts that there is some sort of rules pamphlet that you can get. You know, like something passed out to potential campers/users, with the usual stuff like "fires in pits only", "no loud music", and "dogs on leash", and "no alcahol", etc.... So if you're going to go to the sportsman center to ask around, then do this: Ask for the location of the rules for usage. They'll hand you the pamphlet, or direct you to a web-link, or whatever. Simply read that.

No need to ask "can I metal detect?". Because if you do that, you risk a "no" when there's really no rule that says such a thing. Simply because the desk-clerk morphs something else to apply to your "pressing question" (when perhaps they'd never have cared less, nor given the matter a moment's thought before).

If there's anything in that pamphlet or weblink about cultural heritage or archaeological stuff, then presto, you're not finding anything old ....... now are you? Of course, just because you see nothing saying "no metal detecting" and thus deduce that it's therefore not prohbited, still doesn't mean you should still use a little discretion . I mean, you still don't go waltzing over beach -blankets at an archie convention, don't stick out like a sore thumb, etc...

Good luck.

 

[azprospector]

You have your C.A.C. card so you should be okay in that sense.
I would still get to know the guys from D.P.W. or Range control just so you can name drop in case the Jedi mind trick doesn't work.
If it's common areas or plain old reservation I would give it a try.

(is your SF-86 up to date ?)

Actually I am a Defense contractor here, have been for the past 20 years.
No CAC Card required, I work for "Homeland Defense".

 

[azprospector]

Az-prospector, if this is an area of the base where hunting, fishing, shooting, camping, etc... are going on for the public, then I bet you dollars to donuts that there is some sort of rules pamphlet that you can get. You know, like something passed out to potential campers/users, with the usual stuff like "fires in pits only", "no loud music", and "dogs on leash", and "no alcahol", etc.... So if you're going to go to the sportsman center to ask around, then do this: Ask for the location of the rules for usage. They'll hand you the pamphlet, or direct you to a web-link, or whatever. Simply read that.

No need to ask "can I metal detect?". Because if you do that, you risk a "no" when there's really no rule that says such a thing. Simply because the desk-clerk morphs something else to apply to your "pressing question" (when perhaps they'd never have cared less, nor given the matter a moment's thought before).

If there's anything in that pamphlet or weblink about cultural heritage or archaeological stuff, then presto, you're not finding anything ....... now are you? Of course, just because you see nothing saying "no metal detecting" and thus deduce that it's therefore not prohbited, still doesn't mean you should still use a little discretion . I mean, you still don't go waltzing over beach -blankets at an archie convention, don't stick out like a sore thumb, etc...

Good luck.

Here is the thing, the place i am interested in is actually in the other side of the Huachuca's from where Ash Canyon is;
There is plenty of outdoor activity in the area. I am interested in One particular wash that runs pretty hard in the Monsoon season, LOTS of water runs every year.
It's just never really crossed my mind until now that I am getting back into the hoby.

Eh, maybe I will just pick up a few buckets of sand and run them through my sluice at home as a 'Test" and see what comes out of it. I mean surely they won't throw me into the brink for a couple buckets of just plain old sand, Or Will they?

 

[Follows Camp Craig]

Actually I am a Defense contractor here, have been for the past 20 years.
No CAC Card required, I work for "Homeland Defense".

Ha ha, that's why I was fishing between the C.A.C and the SF-86.
Well I got my answer. you'll be fine.

Is there a sign up sheet for this adventure?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Are you talking about nuggets? Is that even a nugget producing region to begin with? Or are you talking coins/relics/jewelry type hunting?

If you are talking coins/jewelry/relics type hunting, just be aware that those type "boom and bust" rivers (which go bone dry every summer, but then get blown out in the winter torrential rains), are usually not good for md'ing. That's because whatever beaches and sand bars and shorelines you see NOW, are not the same beaches and sand bars and shorelines of last year, or the year before, etc.... One torrential flow washes a beach way, while another washes in new sediments, and so forth. Hence even if you can figure that people recreated or swam on some creek/river there over-the-years, yet odds are, you're only going to get "this year's losses", if you're talking water-side hunting. Because of the "boom/bust" phenomenom of which I speak.

Where I'm at in CA has that chapparell landscape terrain type too, where a lot (most all) of the rivers go bone dry (or down to a trickle anyhow) during drought years, but then flow strong in the heavy winters. Thus all yester-year targets are gone in quicksand, over covered over with each new year's inflow of sand/sediments, or washed away, etc... Utterly no good.

So you'd need to pick zones above this high-water marks, on higher ground above this action. IMHO.

Oh, and I corrected a relevant typo on my post #9 above. Where I suggested, in reference to possible cultural heritage wording that you "weren't finding anything", I meant to say: "weren't finding anything OLD" Meaning that if there's any wording about historic or cultural, then presto, just don't find anything "old". Odds are, no one's coming up with a calculator and studying the dates on your coins anyhow.

 

[Dave Rishar]

Part of my last tour was spent at Camp Wesley Harris, a Navy small arms range dating back to the thirties. While I was stationed there, I asked my supervisor if I could hunt it. He said, "No problem." Note that he did not ask anyone, and probably didn't have the authority to make that call, but by my way of thinking at the time, if my boss knew about it, it wouldn't be me that got in trouble for it. I did my homework, I went out and hunted some areas that had been abandoned during the fifties, and I found some very cool stuff. I also began to find grenade spoons and fragments. I'm not an expert in the interactions between electromagnetic fields and unexploded ordnance, but it's my understanding that they sometimes do not mix well. I called that part of the hunt off for safety reasons. The upper camp was all barracks, classrooms and utility buildings and there were no UXO concerns up there, and I kept meaning to go and search that. Alas, I never did. They decommed the camp, I got out, and now it's fenced off.

I still work for the Navy today as a DoD civilian in the area. I keep tabs on the camp. Most of the buildings have been torn down in the last decade but I clearly remember where they were and what they were used for, both in my day and before - as I said, I'd done my homework. I've made several unofficial inquiries into resuming my hunt and the answer has been a consistant and resounding no, as in ABSOLUTELY NOT. Admittedly this wasn't on paper and it didn't go very far up the chain of command. I was unable to find any official documentation on it, but I didn't look too hard. This area is obviously not open to the public and I wouldn't count on my CAC and security badge to keep me out of trouble, as they wouldn't keep me out of trouble if I wandered into some other area where I was technically allowed to be, but had no business being in.

There may be federal guidelines for this, there may be departmental guidelines, or it may be left to the local activity. I can't answer that for you. My advice would be to ask first. I'd expect that you're good to go, but are you prepared to bet your job on my opinion?

 

[azprospector]

Yea, I was talking to a buddy who is into prospecting here and he works with pass and ID on the base. He said it's off limits because of the Historical nature of the base. It's considered a Historical Landmark, however, I am still going to call the recreation activities center and poke around a little on my own (they are closed today as it's a holiday). I also asked about taking a couple buckets and he said just don't say what it's for.
The Laws governing Military bases differs from civilian laws, and so just to be safe I am going to ask around a little.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Dave Rishar, what you're saying sounds much like our Ft. Ord barracks. Which, like yours got abandoned, and sat for years. Then eventually demolished, and is now vacant land. And like your scenario, I too could probably find myself a "no", if I kept asking various bureaucrats. I mean, put yourself in their shoes. What do you THINK is the easy answer. It sounds like you acknowledge that they are just giving this out as an arbitrary "no", when .... no such rule exists that specifically says such a thing. I mean, sure: they can "morph" something ELSE to apply to the "pressing question" to back up that no they just invented.

But at Ft. Ord, we helped ourselves routinely, and found silver and wheaties. We even had some MP's come up and question us more than once. But once we assured them we weren't INSIDE the boarded up buildings, they shrugged their shoulders and moved on. Now *some* people would take that as a green light, right? But all it means, is that I didn't ask high enough up the ladder of bureaucracy.

And now, all these years later, the old barracks were torn down, and the fed. govt. gave off the land of the former Ft. Ord base to the cities that surrounded the base (Seaside, Marina, Del Rey Oaks, etc...). And we hit the spots where they were, and get a bit more coins that had been under wooden porches and so forth. The lands were given to neighboring cities for eventual development. But the housing market crash of 2008-ish hit, and developements have yet to occur. There's no fences or signs surrounding the naked land sites of the old barracks now. I suppose *technically* some people would say that a person must go "get permission" from the city's who now have this land, right? But alas, the same thing would no doubt happen there. The request would get passed back and forth through various desks, and ..... guess what ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yea, I was talking to a buddy who is into prospecting here and he works with pass and ID on the base. He said it's off limits because of the Historical nature of the base. It's considered a Historical Landmark, however, I am still going to call the recreation activities center and poke around a little on my own (they are closed today as it's a holiday). I also asked about taking a couple buckets and he said just don't say what it's for.
The Laws governing Military bases differs from civilian laws, and so just to be safe I am going to ask around a little.

AZ prospector, if you absolutely feel the need to talk to a live person, rather than looking up the laws/rules for yourself, then at least do it this way:

Instead of going in and asking something like "can I metal detect?", instead, phrase it this way: "Are there any rules that address metal detectors?". Or "Is there anything that prohibits metal detectors?" Because by phrasing it in THAT form, you are putting the burden of proof on them to CITE such an actual rule, if it existed. That specifically said "no metal detectors". Rather than someone's arbitrary whimsical opinion of whether or not they happen to like md'ing or not.

And if they ask "what will you be doing with that detector", well gee, you're looking for your wife's wedding she lost there while camping last year, right? But seriously now, back to the phrasing methodology of the question: If you can understand what I'm saying there, that this helps take the question away from a "permission" or "grovelling" type answer, and instead, puts it in the camp of "actual laws" type questions, ok, then think of it: If that logic makes sense, then.... again .... you too can simply go look up those same usage rules for yourself as well. And even to the extent of printing them out (thus "having something in writing").

But this is just me. Because if you read my response to Dave Rishar, you can see that you might be running into the "no one cared TILL you asked" psychology.

 

[Follows Camp Craig]

Tom in California knows the angle, the psychological approach.
It's that quick turn around in the conversation as to who's on the defensive.
"Duck season, Wabbit season"
The delivery has to be as sly as a serpent yet subtle as a dove.
This applies to Forrest Circus/ Dept of Agriculture types


Due to OPSEC/COMSEC, I have to refrain from further comments on this subject.

Ha ha, PM me.

 

[cudamark]

If you've been working there for 20 years, you probably know someone higher up in the chain of command that might grease the wheels for you if not give you permission themselves. I've hunted a few "live" bases that way. You usually have to give them an exact location of where you want to hunt but not always. A lot will depend on how sensitive the area is and the degree of security at that particular base. Let us know what you find!

 

[Follows Camp Craig]

Okay, even on Fort Bragg there still remain some 2 story wood frame single bay layout, foot lockers at the end of your Rack. Typical "Biloxi blues" WWII layout,style buildings

These areas are being fast tracked for demolition and replaced with the big the "resort style barracks"

"Sweep it now" under the guise of historical significance as it will be gone in a few months.